So, what is snobbery?

[Edwards]

These are down to earth people that I have every respect for: but I don't believe that their simplistic and polarised interpretation of society can solve the problems of ethnicity, migration, war, economy and the environment that we currently face.

All the other ideas have failed to sort out society's problems so far. Maybe the simplistic and polarised view could have some thing going for it?

[grani]

These are down to earth people that I have every respect for: but I don't believe that their simplistic and polarised interpretation of society can solve the problems of ethnicity, migration, war, economy and the environment that we currently face.

All the other ideas have failed to sort out society's problems so far. Maybe the simplistic and polarised view could have some thing going for it?

As far as I know the simplistic and polarised views have been tried a few times in fairly recent history and mostly with disastrous consequences.

[mrjemm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcueKPGpV54

The Big 'Supply and Demand'. Nice tune, nice lyrics. Worth looking out for 'Our Man' from same album 'Whatever Makes You Happy' also. Same lyrics, different tune.

[Ben@Forest]

As far as I know the simplistic and polarised views have been tried a few times in fairly recent history and mostly with disastrous consequences.

Yep, The Great Leap Forward and Juche were/are pretty simple philosophies which have caused hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of casualties over the years. There's nothing more depressing than hearing some pub bore who come up with some sweeping statement about solving the country's problems when half a minute's rational thought makes you realise there are three or four reasons why that will not work. I'm not really thinking about Nigel Farage but...

[Geoff.D]

I'm confused. Is cycling now part of "Labour Values", too?

It was certainly part of socialist values for years. Just google the history of the Clarion cycling club.

There's still a Clarion left near Burnley, isn't there? I went there once when a teenager with a walking group, and not long ago there was something on the radio about it.

The National Clarion Cycling Club certainly does still exist and has affiliated groups around the country. I believe there is also an independent (splinter) Clarion based in NW Lancashire. There are other Clarion activities, too. Here's a link - http://www.clarioncc.org/

The "Clarion" newspaper was a socialist publication (based in Manchester) and the Clarion movement was indeed promoted by socialists, as a way in which socialists could meet and pursue a range of leisure activities together. For example, I was at a demo/march in Birmingham a year or two ago and was pleased to see a Clarion Choir in support.

At the end of Victorian times/ start of the 20th century, bikes started to be mass produced and become cheaper. They became a means by which working people could extend their opportunities for both employment and leisure. They also provided a boost to the emerging social emancipation of women. These outcomes just happened to be aspirations of the developing (British) socialist ideology. So it's no surprise that the Clarion Movement adopted cycling as one of its activities.

What this story means is that cycling isn't a socialist value............except when it suits them !! Pity, really.

[661-Pete]

I have come across the name 'Clarion' and even have among my bookmarks a link to the website of my local group - based in Brighton - but I have backed off from the idea of joining up thus far. To be honest I'm very shy of the very idea of joining a cycling club, having had less-than-pleasant experiences in the past (which I needn't go into).

But if someone convinces me, I might go along to one.

So - feel free, anyone, tell me what I need to know about Clarion! The sort of demographic, the age range, the sort of pace they go at, etc. etc.? I'm fairly comfortable with meeting people of my own age group - 60+. This isn't snobbery of course, it's merely shyness.

Whether it's build on socialist ideals or not, is of less consequence to me. I suppose we all have a 'socialist' ideal of sorts merely down to the fact that we're adults who regularly choose to cycle - that counts even for those of us who strongly oppose the Labour Party and Miliband. Being a cyclist implies - to me at any rate - some sort of social awareness and conscience.

Yes this thread is perhaps, off at a tangent from its original discussion about class snobbery or whatever - but I don't mind, I started it!

[Flinders]

I believe there is also an independent (splinter) Clarion based in NW Lancashire. There are other Clarion activities, too. Here's a link - http://www.clarioncc.org/

that's the one I was thinking of, I found a website for it:

http://www.clarionhouse.org.uk/index.htm

I'm glad to see it's still going strong. I remember tea in pint pots, looks like they still do that, not something you often see.......

[Geoff.D]

I believe there is also an independent (splinter) Clarion based in NW Lancashire. There are other Clarion activities, too. Here's a link - http://www.clarioncc.org/

that's the one I was thinking of, I found a website for it:

http://www.clarionhouse.org.uk/index.htm

I'm glad to see it's still going strong. I remember tea in pint pots, looks like they still do that, not something you often see.......

Thanks for that link, Flinders. It wasn't the group I was thinking/know of. It looks like this is an activity centre run by the Independent Labour Party, and they chose the name "Clarion" for it. The history of the ILP dates to the same time as The Clarion newspaper (and subsequent Clarion movement). So I'm not surprised that they chose that name. The cycling club I was thinking about doesn't have a website, but I did have copies of its (occasional) magazine. Having just moved house I can't put my hand on one at the moment, but if I do I'll post it. It's called The National Clarion 1895 Cycling Club, to differentiate it from The National Clarion Cycling Club. I don't know why it splintered, but it's based in NW Lancs

[PJ520]

One suspects that she lost her job not because of her views, but because she did not have the foresight to see how publicly stating those views in that way might be used against her and her party. As a professional politician it is expected that one does not fall into these traps quite so easily.

Excellent thoughtful comment. For the last 40 years I've lived in a country where if something stands still for 5 minutes somebody drapes a flag on it, all this hullabaloo seemed a bit odd. Mind you I suspect it's not unlike the Confederate flag thing over here with that thing's attached subtext.

[wrangler_rover]

So waat is snobbery?
In my case today, looking at the news reports on the feeding frenzy of Black Friday shopping and thinking "tat for the plebs."
I despair, if that's the way people behave over saving a few pounds on a TV set of questionable quality, what will happen if there are ever food shortages?

[pete75]

Snobbery would appear to be the attitude that Andrew Mitchell and his fellow public school "patricians" hold towards the "lower orders". Evidence was presented in the recent court case that at Rugby it was normal for the boys to describe non teaching staff as plebs.

[pete75]

So waat is snobbery?
In my case today, looking at the news reports on the feeding frenzy of Black Friday shopping and thinking "tat for the plebs."
I despair, if that's the way people behave over saving a few pounds on a TV set of questionable quality, what will happen if there are ever food shortages?

You've nowt to worry about - food shortages in Lincolnshire are about as likely as sand shortages in the Sahara.

You weren't educated at the same place as Andrew Mitchell by any chance were you?

[661-Pete]

So waat is snobbery?
In my case today, looking at the news reports on the feeding frenzy of Black Friday shopping and thinking "tat for the plebs."
I despair, if that's the way people behave over saving a few pounds on a TV set of questionable quality, what will happen if there are ever food shortages?

Me too. If that is 'society' of whatever class, I want out. I'd rather be a recluse than be a part of that mob. In fact I'd rather be dead.

[wrangler_rover]

Hello pete75.
No, I wasn't educated at the same place as Andrew Mitchell. I was educated at a traditional English grammar school in the early 1970s.
This is maybe a contentious statement but I think most of us are snobs to some extent.
I found the black friday scenes on TV shocking, people behaving like that over saving a few quid, on what is trivia in the grand scheme of things.
The point I was trying to make about food shortages is if it was a much more serious life and death matter, such as a food shortage of boarding lifeboats on a sinking ship, the ones unable to look after themselves such as the old or very young would be barged out of the way or trampled by the me me me mentality. The very same "only me that matters" mentality displayed so well in the black friday scenes yesterday.

[mrjemm]

So waat is snobbery?
In my case today, looking at the news reports on the feeding frenzy of Black Friday shopping and thinking "tat for the plebs."
I despair, if that's the way people behave over saving a few pounds on a TV set of questionable quality, what will happen if there are ever food shortages?

You've nowt to worry about - food shortages in Lincolnshire are about as likely as sand shortages in the Sahara.

Maybe in the very near future, but long term? Wait until the bees're gone. Until Monsanto's played havoc with the food chain. Until Taylor Wimpy's had away with the land.

I got a telly this week, thursday actually. Got the nice cheap price being advertised too, and no silly crowds grabbing anything with a black friday label (presumably how they work it) mobbing around me. All rather civilised. And a proper brand too (Samsung), rather than a Polaroid or Blaupunkt that'll probably die rapidly and feel like a compromise in the meantime. Hehehe, that certainly sounds like snobbery, doesn't it?

Had been looking into HDD recorders, which developed into streaming devices (as everything we'd want to record would be streamable), but they were all very compromised, and walking past the 'Smart TVs', I realised they do the same job, but better (for our purposes). Shame that the telly, being so skinny, has godawful acoustics, and has me looking at speakers already.

To me, this whole 'Black Friday' is a sick joke by the marketing men, being repeated by the media, and manipulating the public. Very cynical, the participants, and I.