can I alter this bottom bracket?

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gerrymcm
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can I alter this bottom bracket?

Post by gerrymcm »

I wonder if people could offer some advice please?

I've just purchased a Token 103mm JIS ST bottom bracket.

It's to go into an eccentric bottom bracket shell but the BB has a shoulder/stop on the left hand side (highlighted with a red circle) made of alu that the cup must butt up against when installed, I'm assuming.

This shoulder is stopping the BB going through my EBB shell as it seems the EBB shell is re-inforced internally and therefore smaller than the size of this shoulder.

Can I simply remove this shoulder with a file as none of my other ST BBs have this sort of shoulder and seem to function OK?

This isn't my actual BB but a snap I found online in order to use to highlight the issue.

Thanks
Gerry
token-103.3.jpg
Keezx
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Re: can I alter this bottom bracket?

Post by Keezx »

You cannot complete remove this shoulder, which is there to prevent putting pressure on the cartridge bearings.
I'm afraid you have to buy another one built as one piece.
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Mick F
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Re: can I alter this bottom bracket?

Post by Mick F »

I have a Campag Chorus BB just the same design as that one and it has a shoulder on the LH end.
The RH cup presses up against the sleeve, and the LH cup cannot get too near because of the shoulder.
Here's mine and it shows the arrangement quite well.
Chorus BB.jpg
Mick F. Cornwall
gerrymcm
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Re: can I alter this bottom bracket?

Post by gerrymcm »

Thanks guys.
So if I go head and remove it the worst thing that might happen is that the cup will bump against the bearing and shorten the life of the bearing?
The external race of the bearing seems to fit really snugly inside the cup and I could fit a 1mm space on the other side to move LH side bearing away from the cup.

Any other potential issue(s)?

Thanks
Gerry
Keezx
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Re: can I alter this bottom bracket?

Post by Keezx »

The problem is that you can't tighten the LH cup without Locktite.
gerrymcm
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Re: can I alter this bottom bracket?

Post by gerrymcm »

Thanks, that makes sense now.
Another order being placed now!!!!
Gerry
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Mick F
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Re: can I alter this bottom bracket?

Post by Mick F »

Keezx wrote:The problem is that you can't tighten the LH cup without Locktite.
I would say, you can't tighten up at all. Tightening would be too tight.

Loctite would firm up at whatever position your threads would be screwed to.
Mick F. Cornwall
gerrymcm
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Re: can I alter this bottom bracket?

Post by gerrymcm »

I measured when I got home and when done up tight against the shoulder it would have left a gap between the bearing and the inside of the cup so taking the shoulder off would cause issues.

How do other 'non shouldered' BBs work then? Does the LH cup not need something to screw against?

I've ordered a Tange which is apparently a better BB so now have the Token in the ever growing spares bin.

Gerry
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Mick F
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Re: can I alter this bottom bracket?

Post by Mick F »

gerrymcm wrote:How do other 'non shouldered' BBs work then? Does the LH cup not need something to screw against?
You get other types that have a flange both sides, and you screw then both tight against the BB shell.
Those types tend to be sealed for life and non-maintainable ................... and cheaper.

Like this Campag one
Screen shot 2015-01-06 at 20.24.29.png
Mick F. Cornwall
Keezx
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Re: can I alter this bottom bracket?

Post by Keezx »

Yes, that model would be the most suitable for the TS.
Besides that, a LH cup not tightened agaist the sleeve would develop unwanted noises from the LH cartridge bearing moving in the cup. (happened to me with the Campa Chorus BB)
Keezx
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Re: can I alter this bottom bracket?

Post by Keezx »

Mick F wrote:
Keezx wrote:The problem is that you can't tighten the LH cup without Locktite.
I would say, you can't tighten up at all. Tightening would be too tight.

Loctite would firm up at whatever position your threads would be screwed to.


Yeah, that's what i mean, said it wrong.
Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: can I alter this bottom bracket?

Post by Brucey »

bottom brackets ranging from inexpensive Sun-Race ones to this 'cheap old thing'

Image

often work by having shoulders on the spindle and a spacer tube which is the same length when fitted as the distance between the shoulders on the axle. This way when the cups are tightened in the frame the bearing outers are trapped between the cups and the tube, and the spindle is laterally located properly. All the fits on the bearings can be sliding fits, on both the spindle and where they mount into the cups.

Now, the tube must compress slightly when the cups are tightened, and my experience is that with cheaper BB units this can impose a significant preload onto the bearings. I think the Royce BB has the spacer tube slightly longer than the shoulder distance on the spindle, to allow for such compression, and cheaper units are not so cleverly thought out.

The Token BB is different. The cups compress the centre tube, but don't trap the bearing outers; they are a (fairly loose on the left, fairly snug on the right) sliding fit in the cups, and they are 1-2mm shy of bottoming out inside the cups too. I've dismantled a Token BB and it seemed to me that the bearing centres were pretty tight on the spindle; I guess they need to be because they contribute to the lateral location.

IIRC the aluminium flanges are somehow just shouldered onto the carbon tube. This means that if you knock the RH cup off, then the LH bearing off the spindle, then the flange off one end of the spacer tube, you can then reassemble the BB as per normal in situ. You just need the carbon tube (less ally flange) to pass through the BB shell OK, and to be able to refit the bearings on the axle. If you do this I'd suggest a little Loctite on the bearings (inner and outer) wherever the fit is a bit too slidey.

hth

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
gerrymcm
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Re: can I alter this bottom bracket?

Post by gerrymcm »

Brucey thanks for the informative and comprehensive reply I appreciate it.
I 'might' have a go at what you suggest but suspect that my technical abilities don't stretch to taking it apart non destructively!
I'm assuming the red alu space couldn't fit over the bearing, which is a pity as that would be a lot easier for me!!!

Thanks again all
Gerry
Brucey
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Re: can I alter this bottom bracket?

Post by Brucey »

no, red spacer can only come off once one of the bearings is off. To take even one bearing off, the spacer tube needs to be slid sideways (so you can get something behind the bearings), and you can't do that without removing the RH cup from the RH bearing. To remove the RH cup, first fit it to a tube (or simply install the RH part of the BB in another frame) then knock it out with a soft hammer. Once the tube is slid sideways, you can sit the unit in a bench vice so that the jaw ends are underneath one bearing; a little more soft hammer work will then release the bearing.

If you do all this, I would recommend removing the inner seals from the cartridge bearings, and then using lots of semi-fluid grease in (ie almost filling up) the centre cavity of the unit when you rebuild it. This will greatly prolong the life of the unit; despite the double seals, water gets into token BB units and quickly wrecks the bearings if you use them in all weathers.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
gerrymcm
Posts: 450
Joined: 30 Oct 2012, 2:52pm

Re: can I alter this bottom bracket?

Post by gerrymcm »

Brucey thanks again that's very helpful.
As I'm a cowardy custard I've gone for the option of fitting a tange which didn't have the shoulder. I'm planning a SS build and the token might be used for that build but if it doesn't work then I'll keep it as a spare.
Many thanks
Gerry
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