Cycling UK Forum

I struggle to keep warm in cold weather and for protection I'm a believer in layers which can be varied according to the temperature. For 5 to 10C the base layer is an older version of one of these https://www.mountainwarehouse.com/merin ... dark-grey/ with an 80/20 Merino/polyester mix. Mine is knitted so it breathes well but traps a layer of air. Then there's an Endura Windchill jacket with finally a Showers Pass Spring Classic jacket to both keep out the wind and fend off any precipitation. The top two layers both have full length zips and zipped underarm ventilation should I warm up. Quite often I leave the underarm vents open and control overall ventilation using the front zip. I recently bought a merino skullcap which goes under the helmet and I'm now wondering I didn't get one years ago as it does a fine job of keeping my head warm without it getting hot.

mattsccm wrote: ↑30 Dec 2023, 8:17pm You can achieve the same effect as Buffalo at a lot less cost and more flexibility. We were doing it before Buffalo came about. Indeed their system just formalised the norm. Wear fibre pile* next to the skin in any garment you like and a windproof layer over the top in much the same design or different. You can remove the outer layer if you need more ventilation or add to it if you want more waterproofing. Double layers of pile are great.
*Not modern fleece but real pile as made by Helly Hansen or found as German/Dutch army surplus. Even Mountain Warehouse sell the stuff.

Up to a point, Lord Copper.
I find that a lot of what makes it work as well as it does is design detail, which brings us back to the point I've made in e.g. the Goretex thread that we wear garments rather than fabrics.
For example, I have both a Buffalo Windcheeater jacket and a Special 6 shirt. Both use the same pile and the same outer fabric but neither is a full substitute for the other. The relative lack of adjustability on the jacket means it's not as good as an all-day garment, the lack of a full zip on the shirt makes it much less use as a convenient over-layer.
Another point about Buffalo shirts is they work best if quite closely sized and come in a much bigger range of sizes than most things to accommodate that. Not a problem if you hit the usual S/M/L on the head but if you don't... I tend to be "M and a half" in quite a few brands and it does make a difference to how well stuff works.

Not that a windbreaker over a pile top next to the skin won't work, just that it probably won't work quite as well as a Buffalo in its sweet-spot conditions.

Pete.

I did a bit of looking into Buffalo jackets last night and like the look of the Belay, for two reasons, it has a full length zip, and is lower an the back than many.
I guess I am also an odd size as the jackets that fit my chest are usually far too long at the back and I have had many dodgy moments when coming to a stop with the bottom of the jacket I am wearing getting caught on the back of my saddle and resulting in a near fall.
The nearest Buffalo stockist is 27 miles from me, but will make my way there soon I hope.

Vetus Ossa wrote: ↑31 Dec 2023, 8:45am I did a bit of looking into Buffalo jackets last night and like the look of the Belay, for two reasons, it has a full length zip, and is lower an the back than many.
I guess I am also an odd size as the jackets that fit my chest are usually far too long at the back and I have had many dodgy moments when coming to a stop with the bottom of the jacket I am wearing getting caught on the back of my saddle and resulting in a near fall.
The nearest Buffalo stockist is 27 miles from me, but will make my way there soon I hope.

The full length zip makes it significantly easier on and off which is good for a layering piece. The shirts are a relative faff on and off, but if you're keeping them on all day that's a bit of a moot point.

On the caught under the saddle thing, I avoid my Active Lite on the MTB in favour of the Teclite for exactly that reason, but it's not just length. Some of the garments have a hem cord and others don't, and though my Special 6 is longer than the Active Lite it doesn't have a hem cord where the AL does, and getting caught under the saddle isn't an issue with the S6.

Pete.

pjclinch wrote: ↑31 Dec 2023, 9:02am

Vetus Ossa wrote: ↑31 Dec 2023, 8:45am I did a bit of looking into Buffalo jackets last night and like the look of the Belay, for two reasons, it has a full length zip, and is lower an the back than many.
I guess I am also an odd size as the jackets that fit my chest are usually far too long at the back and I have had many dodgy moments when coming to a stop with the bottom of the jacket I am wearing getting caught on the back of my saddle and resulting in a near fall.
The nearest Buffalo stockist is 27 miles from me, but will make my way there soon I hope.

The full length zip makes it significantly easier on and off which is good for a layering piece. The shirts are a relative faff on and off, but if you're keeping them on all day that's a bit of a moot point.

On the caught under the saddle thing, I avoid my Active Lite on the MTB in favour of the Teclite for exactly that reason, but it's not just length. Some of the garments have a hem cord and others don't, and though my Special 6 is longer than the Active Lite it doesn't have a hem cord where the AL does, and getting caught under the saddle isn't an issue with the S6.

Pete.

Noted for further pondering Pete, thank you.

slowster wrote: ↑30 Dec 2023, 8:19pm

Vetus Ossa wrote: ↑30 Dec 2023, 7:07pm I’m following this thread with interested, as I ride an ebike, and can never seem to get warm in cold weather. I am pedalling all the time but I do need even eco mode if its anything more than flat to move me and my 30kg bike along.

I suggest you read djnotts' recent thread - viewtopic.php?t=158957. He is not using an ebike, but I suspect you may be riding at a somewhat similar low intensity level as him. If so, I would give you the same advice and suggest that a Buffalo top is unlikely to be the answer - viewtopic.php?p=1811119#p1811119. The insulated Decathlon jacket I suggested was - viewtopic.php?p=1811879#p1811879

You may be right, but the more I think about it the more I move to "not sure". Some of Buffalo's kit is aimed particularly at folk standing around doing not much (or lying around in the case of the sleeping bags), where the moisture management of sweat remains a relatively low priority because there's not much sweating going on.
It remains the case that pile fairly close to the body inside a windproof shell is a remarkably good insulator, and being able to trim the fit as a Buffalo shirt allows enhances that.

Pete

JohnR wrote: ↑30 Dec 2023, 9:55pm I struggle to keep warm in cold weather and for protection I'm a believer in layers which can be varied according to the temperature.

There's no doubt that layering is an effective approach which is why it's the go-to for outdoor pursuits so it's not a matter of belief so much as empirical track record.

Having said that, I've found that on the right sort of day a Buffalo shirt leaves me feeling consistently more comfortable and less clammy than layers. Pulling the garment closer or letting it out, undoing or closing the vents and cuffs, rolling the sleeves up or pulling them down doesn't give you the full range of flexibility of taking one or more of four full layers completely on or off, but if it is enough it's much less faff and gives one better fine control.

Think of it like the difference between a close-spaced rear cassette and one with a big range: the former is better as long as it has enough range for the job at hand, but the latter will let you do a bigger range of rides. The Buffalo is more niche but when it's in its niche I find it's more comfortable than layering.

Pete.

Vetus Ossa wrote: ↑31 Dec 2023, 8:45am I did a bit of looking into Buffalo jackets last night and like the look of the Belay, for two reasons, it has a full length zip, and is lower an the back than many.
I guess I am also an odd size as the jackets that fit my chest are usually far too long at the back and I have had many dodgy moments when coming to a stop with the bottom of the jacket I am wearing getting caught on the back of my saddle and resulting in a near fall.
The nearest Buffalo stockist is 27 miles from me, but will make my way there soon I hope.

I still love my Buffalo mentioned near the start of this thread. Still wearying the same one now over ten year old and looking very tired but still functional.
The first 5 yrs I wore it next to the skin but afterwards it’s been over a base layer. Maybe the pile gets tired, it was worn for over 100 days every winter. This last year I’ve transitioned to virtual cycling in winter and it’s now only used for longer hill walks.
A word of caution though. I’m a real cold tattie and have never had a problem heating up when wearing it. Even when I get home and indoors I’m loathe to take it off as feel so warm.
I’m also in Scotland where the weather app tells me my highest temperature today is lower than your minimum temperature for the day. It looks as if you’re consistently 6C higher than here. You might find the shirt too warm for your area.

There is no sweet spot though surely? Well a very small one which can always be replicated by two separate layers I reckon without the limitations.

mattsccm wrote: ↑31 Dec 2023, 11:05am There is no sweet spot though surely? Well a very small one which can always be replicated by two separate layers I reckon without the limitations.

"Approximated" isn't the same as "replicated".
The devil is in the detail, and a Buffalo shirt has a lot of detail that allows a surprising degree of fine tuning.

Pete.

mattsccm wrote: ↑31 Dec 2023, 11:05am There is no sweet spot though surely?

If anything it's easier, quicker and simpler to control temperature with a Buffalo shirt than with a layering system. The zips - especially the two way zips at the side but also the neck zip and to a lesser degree the pocket zips - allow a huge range of control. If working very hard, such as walking up a very steep slope at pace, the side zips can be opened completely from the bottom and the sleeves can be pulled up and the velcro cuffs snugged to expose bare arms. The back would still have the pile pressed against it by a backpack (possibly not a bad thing re keeping the kidneys warm), but otherwise it would be akin to just wearing a t-shirt. Once a person reaches the top of the hill and stops for a rest and where it might be very windy, the zips can be closed and sleeves pulled down literally in a few seconds: no need to take the backpack off to divest or add clothing. The temperature can be fine tuned between those extremes, e.g. the two way side zips can be partially opened at the top or the bottom on one or both sides depending upon wind direction - again a level of instant adjustability which you simply cannot achieve with a layering system.

And it's not just a matter of temperature control - the pile and pertex are very effective at removing moisture. I think a layering system might perform as well if the conditions are right, e.g. for a good base/mid layer and pertex shell, and if the intensity level is a steady state, but put on a hard shell waterproof or vary the intensity level substantially (uphill, stop, descend, uphill etc.) and a layering system is likely to struggle more with controlling heat loss and removing moisture sufficiently quickly at the same time.

I am just sceptical that a Buffalo shirt is a good choice for cycling. My experience was that the Buffalo Mountain Shirt was not suitable for cycling:

- The fit was not close enough to keep pile in contact with the skin, especially front of the torso in a typical foward leaning cycling position. That resulted in cold air being constantly drawn into that gap between pile and skin by the body movement of pedalling, and also because the pertex was not completely windproof.

- The lack of a close body conforming fit was similarly noticeable around the upper arms and the lower back (nothing to hold the pile against the lower back - that is why the Cycling Shirt had the crotch strap).

That said the Mountain Shirt was shorter than the Special 6 Shirt, used a lighter grade of pertex (supposedly more breathable at the penalty of less windproof), and it lacked the waist cinch strap in the pocket of the Cycling Shirt (don't know if the Special 6 Shirt has the strap). I tried wearing an oversized long sleeve cycling jersey over the Mountain Shirt to eliminate air gaps and press the pile against the skin, but I suspect it also compressed the pile, so what I gained on the swings I probably lost on the roundabouts.

I don't think the existence of the Buffalo sleeping bags is good evidence for the effectiveness of the shirts for standing around and for very low intensity activity. In some conditions I expect a Buffalo sleeping bag will be better than ordinary synthetic sleeping bags, but it will probably be a case of sleeping in the Buffalo bag being slightly less unpleasant/awful than in the ordinary synthetic sleeping bag. It might be the right choice in some circumstances for a very fit, well fed Royal Marine or explorer, but the IMG qualified mountain guides I spoke to reckoned the Buffalo sleeping bags were simply not sufficiently effective, whereas they rated the clothing very highly. The pile and pertex needs body heat to work properly, and the body heat generated by most people when sleeping is simply not enough. For the same reason I am sceptical that a Buffalo shirt is the right clothing for someone sensitive to the cold and riding at a low intensity level on an ebike.

With regard to the comment about gap between chest and pile, my cycling shirt has a strap inside the stomach pocket for drawing the material closer. The design also had a crotch strap for pulling the wiily warmer section in place. Great idea for recumbents as the design of clothing is neglected for them. The lower the seat angle the more the top needs to be like a babygrow!!!!!!
Sweat can be removed easily by undoing the side zips and pulling the buffalo over your head and shaking it.( not near friends) Try doing that with a layered system.

slowster wrote: ↑31 Dec 2023, 1:44pm
If anything it's easier, quicker and simpler to control temperature with a Buffalo shirt than with a layering system. The zips - especially the two way zips at the side but also the neck zip and to a lesser degree the pocket zips - allow a huge range of control. If working very hard, such as walking up a very steep slope at pace, the side zips can be opened completely from the bottom and the sleeves can be pulled up and the velcro cuffs snugged to expose bare arms. The back would still have the pile pressed against it by a backpack (possibly not a bad thing re keeping the kidneys warm), but otherwise it would be akin to just wearing a t-shirt.

While I'm on-board with a Buffalo shirt having better fine control than typical layering systems, I can't agree you can get a Mountain Shirt or similar as cool as a T-shirt.
If it's a day where I'd be down to just a thin base layer at some point I'd not be in Pertex/Pile. Venting is great, but it has it's limits and I'd put them higher than a T!

slowster wrote: ↑31 Dec 2023, 1:44pm
I am just sceptical that a Buffalo shirt is a good choice for cycling. My experience was that the Buffalo Mountain Shirt was not suitable for cycling:

- The fit was not close enough to keep pile in contact with the skin, especially front of the torso in a typical foward leaning cycling position. That resulted in cold air being constantly drawn into that gap between pile and skin by the body movement of pedalling, and also because the pertex was not completely windproof.

I wear mine on a recumbent tourer and reasonably upright flat-bar bikes so it may well be that in more of a crouch they're not so good.
Fit is, of course, a variable dependant on the individual. I find a Buffalo 40 is a very good fit on me, a previous similar Montane garment was relatively baggy in L or a bit tight in an M. Being a fairly recent convert to Buffalo I don't know how recent their 2" chest size increments are, but even though their sizing is finer grained than most that's still not much help if you're a very different shape to their patterns.
They do some degree of customisation but I'm not sure how much. My Windshirt is made longer than standard but I didn't need the basic fit around the chest changing. Also, custom builds take ages (mine was 10 weeks) and costs more on top of a not-cheap start.

slowster wrote: ↑31 Dec 2023, 1:44pm
That said the Mountain Shirt was shorter than the Special 6 Shirt, used a lighter grade of pertex (supposedly more breathable at the penalty of less windproof), and it lacked the waist cinch strap in the pocket of the Cycling Shirt (don't know if the Special 6 Shirt has the strap).

I think since Perseverance Mills shut up shop and Pertex moved house to Japan that there are fewer flavours, and Mountain and Special 6 both use Pertex Quantum (what was originally Pertex 5, or close to it, I think, and not the original Pertex Quantum which was super-light variant IIRC). The Active and Active Lite use "P-Form", which looks and feels a bit like Pertex Equilibrium. I'm not sure how it's meant to compare to the Pertex, but it seems to work okay...

According to the marketing blurb at least, the Mountain Shirt has a waist cinch strap now.

slowster wrote: ↑31 Dec 2023, 1:44pm I don't think the existence of the Buffalo sleeping bags is good evidence for the effectiveness of the shirts for standing around and for very low intensity activity. In some conditions I expect a Buffalo sleeping bag will be better than ordinary synthetic sleeping bags, but it will probably be a case of sleeping in the Buffalo bag being slightly less unpleasant/awful than in the ordinary synthetic sleeping bag. It might be the right choice in some circumstances for a very fit, well fed Royal Marine or explorer, but the IMG qualified mountain guides I spoke to reckoned the Buffalo sleeping bags were simply not sufficiently effective, whereas they rated the clothing very highly. The pile and pertex needs body heat to work properly, and the body heat generated by most people when sleeping is simply not enough. For the same reason I am sceptical that a Buffalo shirt is the right clothing for someone sensitive to the cold and riding at a low intensity level on an ebike.

It's more stuff like the Tecmax Shirt and the BAS coats which the marketing says is for standing around doing nothing much, though whether that's true or "marketing true" I don't know. I have spent some time stood around in proper cold in the S6 and been merely chilled while others around me have been shivering, so I do know that they work as insulation to some degree without much action. I see quite a few on spectators at the Scottish CX series, where it's typically cold and damp and the action is watching someone else work rather than doing it oneself.
But I'm saying it might work or might not work in our low-oomph situation rather than it will or won't. Given the expense my original approach may be in order: wait for a good price on one on eBay and if it doesn't work out it can be sold on for around the same price.
Also, that other thread was more a medical condition than someone that just seems to feel the cold, so perhaps not such an edge case this time?

Pete.

pjclinch wrote: ↑31 Dec 2023, 5:06pm I can't agree you can get a Mountain Shirt or similar as cool as a T-shirt.

Which is not what I said. 'Akin to' means of similar nature or character, not 'the same as'. With the front fully unzipped and the sleeves pulled up, the ventilation will allow a lot of body heat to be lost, especially so in breezy/windy conditions.

The bottom line is that the vast majority of users of Buffalo clothing are relatively fit, healthy individuals with an active lifestyle. Even when standing around those individuals are likely by virtue of a higher metabolic rate to be generating significantly more body heat than someone who is elderly, infirm, unfit or in poor health, and sensitive to feeling the cold.

If Vetus Ossa were to buy a Buffalo Shirt and confirm that it worked really well for him despite the fact that he was riding an ebike at a low intensity, and despite his sensitivity to the cold, that would be a valuable endorsement of the products' effectiveness for all groups of people. However, I am not confident that it would be as effective as a much cheaper insulated jacket, and given the high cost of Buffalo tops I think buying one would be an unnecessarily expensive gamble compared with buying something like the much cheaper Decathlon insulated jacket, which djnotts found worked very well for him.

slowster wrote: ↑31 Dec 2023, 5:53pm

pjclinch wrote: ↑31 Dec 2023, 5:06pm I can't agree you can get a Mountain Shirt or similar as cool as a T-shirt.

Which is not what I said. 'Akin to' means of similar nature or character, not 'the same as'. With the front fully unzipped and the sleeves pulled up, the ventilation will allow a lot of body heat to be lost, especially so in breezy/windy conditions.

The bottom line is that the vast majority of users of Buffalo clothing are relatively fit, healthy individuals with an active lifestyle. Even when standing around those individuals are likely by virtue of a higher metabolic rate to be generating significantly more body heat than someone who is elderly, infirm, unfit or in poor health, and sensitive to feeling the cold.

If Vetus Ossa were to buy a Buffalo Shirt and confirm that it worked really well for him despite the fact that he was riding an ebike at a low intensity, and despite his sensitivity to the cold, that would be a valuable endorsement of the products' effectiveness for all groups of people. However, I am not confident that it would be as effective as a much cheaper insulated jacket, and given the high cost of Buffalo tops I think buying one would be an unnecessarily expensive gamble compared with buying something like the much cheaper Decathlon insulated jacket, which djnotts found worked very well for him.

I will report back when I have decided what to buy.
My son (military) has one apparently, so will see what it is, and if big enough try.