Cycling UK Forum

+1 for buy the girl a decent bike.

531colin wrote:".......beautiful old road bike......."
Sorry, but it isn't any of those things except old....

what, not even a bike...?

cheers

Wow, lots of great replies. Really appreciate the input from everybody. I'll try and address everything that's been said so far, and sorry for the delay in replying, I'm not feeling too well at the moment!

531colin wrote:Sorry, but it isn't any of those things except old. If your GF has been riding it with the saddle at that height, it isn't even near the right size for her, with the bars much lower than the saddle she is never likely to be comfortable or safe.
You seem to be looking to "rescue" an old bike that you feel attached to, without spending too much.....there are 2 problems with this, firstly I don't see any reference to what your GF might want, and secondly I don't think you have the skills or tools to do the job,,,,what will you do if the stem or bottom bracket are corroded into the frame? If you start paying somebody to do the job, it gets expensive.
If there was even the faintest possibility that my woman might ride with me, I would be searching for the exact bike she needs and wants, not trying to bodge something up just because it happened to be knocking around.
Modern "aero" brake levers have the wrong cable pull for your old centrepulls, they are optimised for dual pivot sidepulls.
What is "slipping" with the gearing? "Friction" gearing requires the rider to put the lever in the right position. If this isn't done, you will get ghost shifting. If the lever is simply being pulled round by the spring, you only need to tighten the friction nut in the middle of the lever.

Edit...most towns have some sort of charitable/volunteer bike repair/recycling thing going on. The sort of place where you might be able to use tools, get help and information.....and maybe a more promising bike to start from.

Fair points but you don't quite have me all worked out. If you'd like to question my motives and the ethics behind the bike I'll happily expand that side of things. We're both students at Oxford where bikes are essential for short every day commutes of no longer than 15 minutes. She has a very good mountain bike at home that she uses off road but didn't want to risk it being stolen here. She was in her first year still last year and hadn't yet got herself a bike for Oxford so I started looking for her birthday. She really liked my old Carlton (which was properly restored) so I decided to try and get her something similar, hence the old style and my eagerness to put new components on it. I personally had no previous attachment to the bike, but I thought (and hoped!) she'd like it. It turns out she absolutely loves it, and her friends often compliment it for being both attractive and unique. Generally speaking the bike is in good condition and had never been stored outside. I also bought it from a contact of mine that restores older bikes in his spare time and had checked it over and performed all basic maintenance that I am not used to dealing with. So to be clear, I am not 'rescuing' an old bike for my own entertainment, this is specifically in reference to what she wants and as an engineering PhD student in a department full of bike nuts and every piece of equipment you could possibly need, as well as a volunteer bike repair place down the road, I think I should be OK getting it sorted. The reason I am trying to do the work without spending too much money is that she would hate it if I spent too much on her, something she tells me off for doing quite often. Yes a new bike might be a little physically better suited to her but in that picture the seat is that high because I had ridden it home, and I am much taller than she is.

Personal stuff aside (and hopefully acceptably explained), if I swap the brake levers I will also swap the centrepulls out for my sidepulls, thanks for letting me know about the cable pull. The gears were initially fine but started to slip after a while. I've had the lever mechanism apart since then and cleaned up/tightened things and it seems to be better. However, if a brand new part was likely to perform better I'd happily get one simply for peace of mind.

Brucey wrote:if you have ~12mm of upwards movement of the brake blocks available then when you change from 597 to 622mm rims then you will be able to re-use the old centre pulls.

Personally I'd try the suicide levers with the new wheels before ditching them; if you change to alloy rims the brakes will instantly work x3 better in the wet or so.

It looks as if you have a Simplex friction lever gear there; this should be assembled bone-dry. The slightest trace of grease or oil will cause the lever to slip, so degrease it before assembling it. Note that if the backplate moves (even slightly) when the lever is moved, or the front plate moves slightly either, then the tension screw will gradually back out as the lever is moved back and forth.

A final comment is that I would suggest a different saddle, chosen by your GF to be comfy; that one looks pretty dreadful to me.

I agree about the saddle, I've asked her about it a few times because I'd like to replace it but she swears it's fine. I guess the short duration of each ride ensures any potential discomfort level is never reached.

There's definitely room to move the brake blocks up 12mm which was my original thought. I think I will try the centrepulls and suicide levers with alloy rims first and only change if they aren't a good fit. I'll check the friction gear lever for movement like you suggested, thanks for the detailed description!

mjr wrote:Are they steel wheels and did you replace the pads with steel-compatible ones? Something like Fibrax Raincheaters? With the rise of aluminium rims, this seems to be a surprisingly common mistake with old bikes.

Probably and I think it could be replaced with any gear levers that have the same cable pull. If you change the derailleur, then that'll determine the cable pull needed. I'm using a Shimano 7-speed switchable shifter in friction mode on one bike and it works fine, even though there's only 6 gears. By "isn't up to the job" do you mean only the slipping (I think some levers get so old and can't be tightened any more) or is there some other problem?

I slightly dislike indexed gearing: firstly, it's an extra small nuisance getting it exactly slick; and secondly, most combined brake/shifters can't be checked by position so I'm forever forgetting what gear I'm in!

Yes they are steel wheels and no, I had no idea there were steel compatible brake pads available, and neither did my local bike shop! They only suggested replacing the wheels altogether. Do the fibrax pads you suggested work as well as alloy wheels and normal pads would?

The gear lever is just slipping, everything else works perfectly. It's a 5 speed system, I'll try and get more detail on them soon but I have a super busy week going on! You make an interesting point about combined shifters, I hadn't considered that. I've not had them before myself!

merseymouth wrote:Hi All, Unless I'm having another Senior Moment I believe that the stirrups will be fine as the bike currently wears 26" x 1.125" rims? So 700c rims will be slightly bigger. Also with the right sort of freewheel, 6 speed, Indexing is certainly possible using a 120mm rear hub. As for "Suicide Levers"? BIN THEM! TTFN MM

Good to know thanks. I may give the current brake set up a chance with alloy wheels but I'm more than happy to swap my Carlton's side-pull brakes and Aero levers over. I really need to find out exactly what I have on the bike before asking you for more specific advice on the 5 speed gears. I'll get back to you soon if that's OK.

fastpedaller wrote:Potential issues and their resolution for a 70's bike

120mm OLN spacing on rear - frame has to either be cold set to 130mm ( to be able to use a modern hub) , or use a zenith or similar threaded hub with 120 OLN, but this will restrict the use to 5 speed (or ultra 6) and index gearing will not work so it's friction only!
700c rims are 4mm on radius less than 27" rims, so unless the callipers will reach, alternatives are needed.
Those tektro ones only have 49mm drop, so probably not enough, and unless you can get 'nutted -on ' callipers you will need to machine the rear of the fork to take the recessed nut .... and then if you want to fit guards, not easy!
I'd suggest callipers with nuts may be available from SJS or Spa.

You can buy a conversion bolt for recessed nut brakes. It replaces the very short bolt in the rear brake turning it into a front brake, and the front brake will fit the rear. You have to swap the brake pads around of course. You also need to keep the nuts and shaped washer from the old brakes.

I did this fitting Tektro dual pivots to my 1980s Raleigh Eclipse. So much better, even with original levers.

Item here: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tektro-tektr ... prod24266/

One gotcha - you need to remove the spring to get to the bolt, and you will find it impossible to remove if you don't notice the tiny little grub screw which holds it in place. I nearly knackered an allen key trying to unscrew that bolt before I noticed the grub screw! I presume it's to prevent the bolt from undoing itself as the brake is used.

DavidH wrote:Yes they are steel wheels and no, I had no idea there were steel compatible brake pads available, and neither did my local bike shop! They only suggested replacing the wheels altogether. Do the fibrax pads you suggested work as well as alloy wheels and normal pads would?

Ask me after I next ride a steel-wheeled bike in the rain with them on! They used to stop me as I descended the 25% to my old home. I doubt they're as good even size-for-size but honestly, I can't tell because my alloy-wheel bikes have far longer pads (typically 70mm rather than Raincheater's 36mm) and less flexible levers and especially arms, so of course they stop quicker. I've just put some 50mm Revolution Advanced Road Brakes on the front of the roadster (EBC confirmed by email that they should suit steel too) but I've yet to try them in the wet.

If anyone wants a cheap tester from the High Street, suggested by another of this parish, http://www.wilko.com/bike-parts+accesso ... vt/0011472 will fit old road calipers and are 42mm. They wear fairly quickly and I estimate they give something like half the performance of good steel-specific pads, but the improvement might give an idea whether safe stopping is likely.

Then there's all the usual old tricks about keeping cable runs short but smooth and not kinked when the bars turn, all of which help get the most out of old brakes. http://sheldonbrown.com/cables.html#routing

For wet weather braking on steel rims, I had more success grinding the chrome off and using soft pads (for alloy) than with leather-faced pads on chrome. (This was for a tandem....in the end, I built a front hub off a Honda 50 into the front wheel....it stopped then.)
If this bike is to be parked in the sort of place where attempted theft resulted in a wrecked renovated (Carlton?) bike, then it makes sense to put as few new components on as possible.
I would have thought that a bike recycling place would have plenty of friction downtube levers.

I've successfully fitted the front wheel and the current brakes look absolutely fine with them. However, the levers themselves aren't amazing so I may still consider swapping over my shimano levers and side-pulls from the Carlton.

I've had a play with the gears and there's no slipping, I think they're working fine since I looked at them previously. Very smooth operation! I have some pictures of the derailleur and gears. Can anybody direct me to the best rear wheel build for a 5-speed 120mm wheel with a Mavic open pro rim? Is it possible to use the gears already on there?

karlt wrote:You can buy a conversion bolt for recessed nut brakes. It replaces the very short bolt ...

I'll look into this, not completely sure I know what you mean yet!

mjr wrote:Ask me after I next ride a steel-wheeled bike in the rain with them on! ...

I'd be interested to know how you find them if you do try them in the rain!

531colin wrote:For wet weather braking on steel rims, I had more success grinding the chrome off and using soft pads (for alloy) than with leather-faced pads on chrome. (This was for a tandem....in the end, I built a front hub off a Honda 50 into the front wheel....it stopped then.)
If this bike is to be parked in the sort of place where attempted theft resulted in a wrecked renovated (Carlton?) bike, then it makes sense to put as few new components on as possible.
I would have thought that a bike recycling place would have plenty of friction downtube levers.

I was wondering whether sanding them down would help. Would the roughened surface chew through brake pads really fast though? I assume there'd be nasty corrosion too over time?

Her bike is parked in a private and secure location overnight, mine wasn't (just that one night!) so hopefully it will be fine. That said, I am trying to limit the amount of new parts I use because Oxford is terrible for theft and damage. As I said above, I think the friction gearing is actually fine. I'll keep testing it to see if it deteriorates.

karlt wrote:You can buy a conversion bolt for recessed nut brakes. It replaces the very short bolt ...

I'll look into this, not completely sure I know what you mean yet!

Follow the link. Essentially if you buy dual pivot brakes (and I can strongly recommend you do, because the stopping power is far closer to what you'd be used to on a MTB) they will in all likelihood attach to the frame with a bolt and a recessed hex nut. If you look at your existing brakes, you will see they're attached by a bolt that goes right through the fork/stay and a nut. Because the older bolts went right through rather than being recessed, they are longer. In both cases, the front brake has a longer bolt than the rear.

As luck would have it, the bolt on a recessed front brake is long enough to mount a rear brake using the older nut system. So you can fit the front brake from your set of new brakes on the rear. However, the other brake with the very short bolt won't fit anywhere, so you have to replace it with the bolt I linked to. To access it you need to loosen a grub screw that holds it in place and remove the spring to allow the brake to open sufficiently to get to it. You can then put this brake on the front and fix it using the original nut. You will also need the moulded washer that the existing brake has to mate the flat brake surface to the curved fork surface.

You will then find the brake blocks are all back to front and need to be swapped around.

karlt wrote:Follow the link...

Oh I see! Very useful, I'll check that out when I'm next with the bike. Thanks!

DavidH wrote:

karlt wrote:Follow the link...

Oh I see! Very useful, I'll check that out when I'm next with the bike. Thanks!

It's ridiculously expensive on the face of it but it does solve the problem beautifully.

Nut fit brake bolt conversion thingy here for £8...http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b0s100p2341
.....Can you use this for the front, and the existing front bolt as a nut fit rear ? (with a hex. nut, obviously)

DavidH wrote:I've successfully fitted the front wheel and the current brakes look absolutely fine with them. However, the levers themselves aren't amazing so I may still consider swapping over my shimano levers and side-pulls from the Carlton.

If you want to give the CP's a proper chance, fit new cables, decent brake blocks, and perhaps move the brake levers higher up on the bars which will give a better result with the suicide levers (provided you don't go too far such that the lever hits the handlebar).

Re the gears/wheel build; if you want to stick with a 120mm back end (you could spread it to 126 or 130 if you wanted) then it pretty much has to be a screw-on freewheel (unless you can find an early model cassette hub) in which case there are lots of very cheap hubs out there which will do the trick for you. Your present freewheel is old but it does not look badly worn. An open pro is overkill for this kind of bike; I'd suggest a rigida chrina as being pretty close and less than half the cost.

cheers

Brucey wrote:If you want to give the CP's a proper chance, fit new cables, decent brake blocks, and perhaps move the brake levers higher up on the bars which will give a better result with the suicide levers (provided you don't go too far such that the lever hits the handlebar).

Re the gears/wheel build; if you want to stick with a 120mm back end (you could spread it to 126 or 130 if you wanted) then it pretty much has to be a screw-on freewheel (unless you can find an early model cassette hub) in which case there are lots of very cheap hubs out there which will do the trick for you. Your present freewheel is old but it does not look badly worn. An open pro is overkill for this kind of bike; I'd suggest a rigida chrina as being pretty close and less than half the cost.

I went to my local bike shop today and they suggested building a new wheel around the old hub, do you think that's a good idea? It would keep things simple as I see it, no need to change the derailleur and friction shifter, no need to spread the back end and she keeps the gears she is already happy with. (Being a town bike they are hardly necessary at all, I prefer a single speed for Oxford myself.)

I'll certainly change the cables, the front is awful but I had trouble getting it out of the lever mechanism last time I tried. I seem to remember doing the back cable a month or so ago. What would you suggest were 'decent' blocks?

Edit: I forgot to say, I know the open pros are overkill but I want the wheels to match each other and I don't mind spending the extra for that.

Small update, the hub is too worn to build a new wheel around according to the bike shop. Also, the current back wheel is actually 125mm, my attempt to measure with a ruler clearly wasn't very accurate! So the question is, do I try and find a better condition old hub like mine or build a new wheel around a cheap screw on hub? Which is the sensible option? I'm not even sure where to start looking for second hand old hubs!

Measure the distance between the dropouts. If its 126mm (one of the old standards) then a new 130mm machine built wheel will "spring" in fine.
(I would question the wisdom of a hand-built Open Pro wheel on a student bike....get the lass a decent saddle first...... )