rear axle length vs dropout spacing

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tjm

rear axle length vs dropout spacing

Post by tjm »

Hi All,

My 1st posting here so please be nice :-)

I am trying to resurrect and old touring bike I have for use as a general commuting/hack.

It is a custom made 531c frame, shimano 600(?) hubs, 6 speed freewheel etc etc. Not bad quality (the bike cost me £600 to build 20 years ago) but probably pretty much worthless now. So the aim is to make it useful without spending much money!

Anyway, my problem: the rear hub is knackered - it was used for a while with a broken rear axle and I think it is now beyond repair. Looking around, modern hubs appear to be either 130 or 135 between locknuts. My frame is 125/6 to suite the old 6 speed hub.
So, what are my options? Can you still get (budget) 126mm hubs? Is it practical to spring the rear frame to fit a 130/135? I tried and and it might go to 130 but probably not 135.

Alternatively, any 130/135 hubs that are known to have spacers that can be removed to get them down to 126?

Any advice from anyone who has done this?

BR,
Toby
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Mick F
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Post by Mick F »

Hi Toby, and welcome to the forum.

Your old 531 isn't worthless! My old 531 is in for a much-needed refurbishment.

Modern 130mm WILL fit in your frame. The hub will go in, but will be tight. The frame is springy, so it'll go in with a little persuasion. I've been 130mm in my old frame for the past 4 years.

One of the jobs that Mercian are doing for me, is to widen the rear to 130mm to make it easier, but quite honestly, it isn't that necessary.
Mick F. Cornwall
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CJ
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Post by CJ »

I wouldn't tolerate a wheel that's a pain to refit every time you get a puncture etc., when it's quite simple to have the old frame "cold set" to fit properly and easily. And I wouldn't go half-measures with a roadie 130mm. Get the frame set to 135mm to fit mountain-bike hubs. They result in a less severely dished wheel, hence more equal spoke tensions, and the chainline is better for the triple chainsets with which touring bikes are best equipped.

When our 1978 tandem was resprayed (by Mercian) they cold set the rear ends from 120mm to 145mm (usual for tandems to make space for a drum brake on the left), so don't worry that 5mm per side seems a lot. It isn't.

And although Mercian are frame builders, any well-equipped bike repairer can do it. No heat is necessary or even desirable, since heating a brazed construction at the same time as you bend it can cause intra-granular braze penetration that weakens the steel. Hence the term: cold setting. For more about it see Sheldon Brown.
Chris Juden
One lady owner, never raced or jumped.
tjm

Post by tjm »

Worthless as in could not sell it for much. :(

To me it is a very useful frame. Custom made for me, built to touring spec but from C tubing rather than ST. It is light but been proved to stand any level of abuse, including off road with fully loaded front and rear panniers. It is a shame the rear hub wasn't so robust!

It sounds like a 130 hub is the easiest option although I have found a shimano MTB (135) hub that appears to have fairly large spacers on the non-gear side. I might try to find out if they can be remove/cut down and the axle shortened to get 126mm.

CJ: Thanks for that link. You are right, it would be good to sort the problem properly. The technique described for cold setting looks easy enough assuming it doesn't end in a bent frame :o

BR,
Toby
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Post by hamster »

an even cleverer :wink: idea is to get the frame cold set to 132 so it will fit both. It's generally considered good practice not to cold set a frame twice, so at least it's "cake and eat it" with 132.

Alternatively, the gear number wars mean that road bikes will have 15 speed cassettes in 2017 when you next rebuild the frame and will need 135 dropouts.... :twisted:
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georgew
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Post by georgew »

I had the same problem with my Mercian which was six speed hub originally. I cold set the rear to 135 without any difficulty by using Sheldon's method.
The only problem I experienced was a certain loss of vision, which was caused by cold sweat dripping down into my eyes as I envisaged my custom frame snapping.
In any event it was not too difficult and I would recommend it to you. It comes with photos which are a big help.
JohnW
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Post by JohnW »

tjm -

Currently I am riding a 126mm rear end frame and a 120 rear end frame.
I'm using Campag and Dura-Ace hubs - all have seen several rims out, and the Campag hubs can be re-cupped (i.e. new bearing cups fitted) without much difficulty - new cups, cones and suitable ball-bearings are available from Mercian.

Mercian also have plans to have suitable spindles (or axles if you prefer), but I've bought new spindles from Spa Cycles. Using new tackle as noted above from Mercian and Spa, I have re-furbed four pairs of 25+ year old screw-on hubs recently. It's not difficult, and for less than a new quality rear hub gives me a better, if old fashioned, hub than the offerings currently available.

If you look on Spa Cycles advert in the CTC magazine ("Cycle") you will see that they still supply screw-on hubs (when I say screw-on, I mean hubs which accept the old traditional screw-on freewheel block, rather than the current mainstream freehub and cassette ensemble) and will build new wheels on such hubs.

Screw-on freewheel blocks are still available, no problem, 5 speed or 6.

My new frame is 130mm, and I have had new wheels built on Shimano Ultegra hubs, but I have also re-furbed a pair of 25 years old Campag Record hubs, put a new spindle in (from Spa Cycles, and to the length required) and packed it out to 130mm with standard washers, and had new wheels built for comparison with the pair with new hubs. The older hubs, with 5 or 6 speed block space can be set to put the hubs nearer to central in the frame, and therefore dished to give a stronger wheel with more equal spoke tension.

Cold setting the rear end of your frame to the new width is not a problem for a frame builder. but I wouldn't simply spring a frame out to accept a wider wheel - having said that, I did it on one frame with no problem.

The old hubs are still available. Your old hub may be knackered, but if it's a Campag, you can re-furb it. In our CTC section, we all have buckets of old spares and most of us could help each other out with an old hub (except me of course, who re-furbs and uses them), although I have a really old (but not recommended) 1960s Normandy hub, and I still have a 27" wheel with a "Sunshine" rear hub still in it. "Sunshine" hubs from the seventies were a lot better than their name suggested, and would certainly see out two rims.

Mercian and Spa Cycles both advertise in "Cycle".

Let us know what you decide and how you go on.

JohnW.
tjm

Post by tjm »

Thanks guys, some very useful comments.

Both Spa and Mercian have websites so I can get their contact info there. I might talk to them about the refurb options.

At the moment I am leaning towards resetting the frame to 135 for a few reasons
1) I am thinking of going to a single front chainring for simplicity etc so a 7/8/9 speed rear block could be a useful improvement.
2) The newer cassette type axles have a much better bearing location than the old freewheel hubs. Given that I managed to break the old axle and this bike will be used as much (or more) off road than on tarmac (dirt tracks, canal footpaths etc) then I think extra strength would be useful. At 135 I can use a MTB hub.
3) I've trued wheels plenty of times but never built one. I fancy the challange of rebuilding the wheel. How hard can it be :wink: :lol:
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Phatman
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126 hubs

Post by Phatman »

Hi Toby

I have a pair of Mavic 501 hubs that are a few years old but still run very sweetly. The rims wore out and I bought a new wheelset. The rear hub was shortened to 126 (spacers swapped). Would you be interested in these?

Phatman
JohnW
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Post by JohnW »

tjm wrote:Thanks guys, some very useful comments.

Both Spa and Mercian have websites so I can get their contact info there. I might talk to them about the refurb options.

At the moment I am leaning towards resetting the frame to 135 for a few reasons
1) I am thinking of going to a single front chainring for simplicity etc so a 7/8/9 speed rear block could be a useful improvement.
2) The newer cassette type axles have a much better bearing location than the old freewheel hubs. Given that I managed to break the old axle and this bike will be used as much (or more) off road than on tarmac (dirt tracks, canal footpaths etc) then I think extra strength would be useful. At 135 I can use a MTB hub.
3) I've trued wheels plenty of times but never built one. I fancy the challange of rebuilding the wheel. How hard can it be :wink: :lol:


tjm :

Ah, yes, the bearing locations on the current freehub-type-hubs are certainly a boon and I have never had a spindle on such a hub bend or break. However, whilst spindles on screw-on hubs are known to break from time to time, it doesn’t happen all the time, and I know and can live the risk, and for wheels on a hack/work bike, especially in winter, I still go for screw-on hubs. I have recently re-furbed the hub which most recently broke its spindle with a new spindle from Spa, (and new cups, balls and cones from Mercian) and it is currently with the wheelbuilder going into new rims.

The thing about the free-hub types is that the cassette (sprocket block) is changed when the sprockets/chain wear out, leaving the freewheel mechanism on the hub. In the winter season and other times of bad weather, you get water, salt and other indescribable crud into bearings and mechanisms, which shortens their life and ultimately destroys them.

On a screw-on hub, you renew the freewheel mechanism every time you change the block/chain, because it’s part of the block. On a freehub, unless you also change the freewheel mechanism when you change the block (which defeats part of the object and purpose of the freehub), then during winter you’re setting sail with a crud-encrusted mechanism that’s already done the lifespan of a block and chain – i.e. it’s an old mechanism. It is also expensive, because a cassette block generally costs at least as much as a freewheel block, and a freehub freewheel mechanism costs almost as much as a freewheel block. In good weather, rolling unattacked by the salt, grime, crud and other unmentionables that leap up from the road, a freehub freewheel mechanism has many miles in it – ask around, you’ll find that it will outlive several cassette blocks, but in winter, it’s open doors to nature’s anti-cycling products.

In winter (and the wet days of spring and autumn), I will stick with the screw-ons as long as they’re available.

Screw-on freewheels don't come with the number and size-range of sprockets, and so with a single chain-ring your range of gears is more limited with a screw-on, but I've done this many-a-year, and so long as you've got the low gears you need, you can get along ok with a limited top gear, especially in bad weather. If you're commuting, you're on the same route day after day, and you would select the bottom gear to your known necessity - this may be actually a bit higher than if you were gearing ip for any eventuality. It's not long since many, if not most, serious cyclists were riding single speed fixed in winter, so it's not an impossible concept.

Keep cycling Toby,

JohnW.
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Post by Cyclenut »

JohnW wrote:On a screw-on hub, you renew the freewheel mechanism every time you change the block/chain, because it’s part of the block. On a freehub, unless you also change the freewheel mechanism when you change the block (which defeats part of the object and purpose of the freehub), then during winter you’re setting sail with a crud-encrusted mechanism that’s already done the lifespan of a block and chain – i.e. it’s an old mechanism.

That's true, except that in the days when I used freewheels it used to be possible to replace the worn sprockets, just like we do now on a cassette, so the freewheel bearings had time to become dirty and worn. Except that those who knew how used to dismantle and re-grease the bearings. That, for me, was the advantage of a screw-on freewheel: complete serviceability. But now that one cannot get the replacement cogs anyway, you're right that one has to throw the whole thing away.

In theory it is also possible to service a Shimano freehub freewheel, but there's a press-fitted dustcap in the way that I've never succeeded in extracting intact. Then you need a special tool to unscrew the cone. One day I'll get that sorted, but in the meantime my Shimano freehubs seem to be much more resistant to the ingress of dirt and water than the old screw-ons. I think this is probably because (in the Shimano design anyway) contamination can't get in the front without passing through the right-hand hub bearing first, which is easy to keep well greased. Provided you do that it can only get in the back, which doesn't seem to be such a dirty area. I also think that some of the hub grease, or the oil mixed into it, seeps into the adjacent freewheel mechanism, helping to keep it running sweet without any dismantling.
Chris Juden (at home and not asleep)
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Post by JohnW »

I agree with most of what you say cyclenut, but remember that we're talking about now and not several years ago, and we're talking about a commuting hack bike, which, in the way of commuting hack bikes, will see life in the raw.

I had a period 27 years of commuting, 10 miles each way, every day, in the hills of West Yorkshire, and in winter, bad weather and crud were significant elements - I could tell some tales of weather conditions. In fact, I simply moved parts from my other and best bikes down to the work bike, so that everything was part worn when it got to the work bike. Two better bikes doing 5000 miles-ish during the good days would pass used but still good parts down to the work bike which would wear it all out in the three months of winter; the summertackle for the work bike knackered itself in the first month of winter. I thought that was the most economical way of doing it. I've not used a freehub type hub/block/freewheel ensemble to total destruction yet - I still ride the screw-ons on winter and work bikes - so I can't talk about them in extremis.

In the days of replaceable sprockets, including the latter days of the Sun-Tour Ultra blocks, I found that the comparative costs of replacement sprockets Vs simply replacing the whole block was such that it wasn't worth the effort of changing sprockets and getting into and cleaning the blocks. It was satisfying to do it that way, but time was so expensive.

In time trialling days of course, one bought the best block that one could afford, and changed sprockets to suit courses. I didn't do much of it, however, so don't be impressed.

JohnW.[/i]
tjm

Post by tjm »

Well, for better or worse I have just got a length of timber and bent my frame! Sorry, I mean cold set it :D

As it turns out it wasn't completely straight anyway so I sorted that too. Much easier than I expected although my heart was in my mouth when I started.

Toby
PW
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Post by PW »

The only freehub I've had malfunction was a deore which had been ridden through 2 instalments of this year's floods - on one occasion to a depth not far below the saddle. I found that the cheapest way to deal with it was to buy a disc specific replacement hub to cannibalise for spares. The bad freehub I removed the rear "O" ring seal, drizzled first WD40 through it to flush out the rubbish, then 3 in 1. Then I left it in a margarine tub of gearbox oil where it's been since June. It now works fine & will be used as a spare when the next one packs up.
If at first you don't succeed - cheat!!
PW
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Post by PW »

Cold setting I'd be inclined to do with a length of threaded bar, a couple of stiff washers & appropriate sized nuts. The Sheldon lump of wood method strikes me as a trifle agricultural!
If at first you don't succeed - cheat!!
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