IGH lubrication; a smoking gun.

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Brucey
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Re: IGH lubrication; a smoking gun.

Postby Brucey » 11 May 2016, 11:45pm

the closest to what SA use is probably Castrol EP-00 semifluid grease.

However I suspect that the kind of grease that is specified for use in land rover front swivels will be better yet; this (I think) has more anti-corrosion additives and a better EP performance.

cheers
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AM7
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Re: IGH lubrication; a smoking gun.

Postby AM7 » 12 May 2016, 9:13am

Thanks Brucey :D

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mjr
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Re: IGH lubrication; a smoking gun.

Postby mjr » 24 May 2016, 11:59am

Brucey wrote:many IGHs have sheet metal or plastic covers at one end or the other. If sand gets thrown up between the covers and the rest of the hub it can make a terrible racket until it is gone. Normally this sounds worse than it really is. [...] If it were my hub I'd strip the coaster end at least;

Well, I did this and a stripped a bit more besides, just to check that the grease had gotten everywhere since I switched to axle-injected semi-fluid grease. I wiped out more sand from the coaster end than I would have imagined would fit, reassembled and the brake is both quiet and much more effective.

The workings themselves all appeared to be covered in plenty of grease... but I still have a creaking in low gear at high load/low cadence. It's intermittent but when it's there, it's periodic and I think in time with the cranks, which seems odd. The reasons I've been suspecting the hub are that I can't make it happen at high load/low cadence in any other gear and it often stops if I switch to 2 and back to 1. Even so, do you think I should be looking at the chain, chainring, sprocket or BB rather than the hub?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Brucey
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Re: IGH lubrication; a smoking gun.

Postby Brucey » 24 May 2016, 3:02pm

creaks can come from so many different places.... I would try everything else (and goodness knows there are enough things to go at) first before assuming it is a problem inside the hub, but it could be a hub-related problem nonetheless.

One possibility is that the axle torque is causing creak on the NTWs. Another is that the cable is creaking where it is mounted onto the frame. Perhaps when in low gear, sometimes only one pawl is engaging, (if there is too much grease -and/or grease that is too thick- in the hub, this may impede pawl engagement).

cheers
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mjr
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Re: IGH lubrication; a smoking gun.

Postby mjr » 30 May 2016, 12:49pm

Brucey wrote:creaks can come from so many different places.... I would try everything else (and goodness knows there are enough things to go at) first before assuming it is a problem inside the hub, but it could be a hub-related problem nonetheless.

Well, I think the problem may have shown itself: the left-side bearing cage disintegrated and contrary to one prediction, it appeared to be the remnants of the cage that punched a nice clean round hole in the brake arm unit :-( so a new one is on order. I had to double-check as it was such a clean cut it looked almost like a grease port - I'll take a photo if anyone's interested.

This was particularly annoying because I had taken a cautious look inside and all bearings appeared to be OK, but this wouldn't be the first time I've misjudged the wear of a cage. Maybe it was cracked and that was the noise?

I think I nursed it home without further damage and the scrap metal seemed to be confined to left of the brake shoe, so I think I've plucked/rinsed/magnetted it all out. I'm tempted to reassemble it with loose balls but I'll have to wait for the new arm anyway so I've ordered one of the unusual-seeming 3/16"x14 "Ball Retainer L" cages too, as they seem in short supply in the UK (which might itself indicate a problem of premature corrosion in that bearing?).

I'm also tempted to switch the bike to an SA three-speed rear hub but that would be an entirely more expensive change than a £10ish brake arm unit!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Brucey
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Re: IGH lubrication; a smoking gun.

Postby Brucey » 30 May 2016, 1:34pm

mjr wrote:
Brucey wrote:creaks can come from so many different places.... I would try everything else (and goodness knows there are enough things to go at) first before assuming it is a problem inside the hub, but it could be a hub-related problem nonetheless.

Well, I think the problem may have shown itself: the left-side bearing cage disintegrated and contrary to one prediction....


that discussion relates not to the LH hub bearing in a coaster hub but instead to the RH ring bearing in Nexus vs SA hubs. Until comparatively recently SA used a full fill of balls in that bearing; now they use half as many balls in a plastic retainer. This appears to work OK, provided the bearing surfaces are in good condition.

By contrast if I'm building an SA hub for my own use I quite often remove the clip and fit loose balls into the hub bearings. I don't always recommend that other people follow suit and nor do I do it to other people's hubs without their consent because;

a) it makes the hub difficult to assemble and
b) if the hub is adjusted to be slack (even briefly) then loose balls can become dislodged and this will then precipitate a hub failure.

It is worth noting that if you have balls in a steel retaining clip, and that clip becomes worn, it is similarly possible for balls to become dislodged when working on any hub.

I'd regard the clipped balls in a typical coaster brake hub LH bearing as being a potential weak spot; you can't use a plastic retainer, they routinely see far higher loads than the RH ring bearing, it is very easy to reassemble the bearing so that something is out of place, and (if the cover is permanently attached to the brake arm as is often the case) you can't see that all the balls are present and correct once the assembly is complete.

Very many such hubs require that the clip is in perfect condition, and that you reassemble the hub one way up, so that all the balls have a fair chance to seat in the bearing properly. One ball out of place, or any deformation of the retaining clip will cause a failure in short order.

It is impossible to know for sure after the event (pictures would help, but I would imagine everything is kind of mangled...) but I would imagine it is quite likely that something was out of place when you reassembled the hub recently.

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mjr
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Re: IGH lubrication; a smoking gun.

Postby mjr » 30 May 2016, 3:44pm

Brucey wrote:It is impossible to know for sure after the event (pictures would help, but I would imagine everything is kind of mangled...) but I would imagine it is quite likely that something was out of place when you reassembled the hub recently.

I can't see quite how anything could be out of place and still have that end of the hub reassemble without it refusing to adjust properly unless the clip was already deforming... and yes, everything the clip and brake arm unit are rather mangled now.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

bobc
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Re: IGH lubrication; a smoking gun.

Postby bobc » 31 May 2016, 10:00pm

I keep badgering my colleague about his track record with 8 speed sturmey archer hubs, I have a picture of the most recent failure, but not the 2 previous (yet) Yes he's on his 4th in about as many years. (replaced under warranty)
1) the planet pivots on (I think) the stepped planet gears elongated the holes on the carrier that they rotate in (by several mm)
2) several teeth broke off an internal ring gear
3) the stepped planet gears actually run on little axles; these are, also stepped, and all three have sheared (probably one went & overstressed the others.
I'm surprised that they've all found a different way to die, the product does seem generally unsuitable for the high torque of a big (700c) wheel. Rich is not a heavy guy (not like me....) but he does a fair few commuting miles in all weathers. There are no steep hills on his route.
Of the three fails, #1 could be blamed on lubrication, but perhaps not the other 2.
Bob

Brucey
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Re: IGH lubrication; a smoking gun.

Postby Brucey » 31 May 2016, 10:21pm

thanks for the update. In the last few weeks I've had an SA8 (W) hub in bits and it is the first ('C') planet gear stage that has spigots instead of separate pins.

The conclusion I've come to is that the design is seriously flawed in several respects. A pity really, because the idea behind it is quite clever.

I have a longer write-up in the works.

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mjr
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Re: IGH lubrication; a smoking gun.

Postby mjr » 2 Jun 2016, 9:28pm

Harrumph! The Shimano 14 ball 3/16" cage isn't in stock anywhere I found yet. Anyone know what size it should be or another source, please?

I'm thinking a rebuild with loose balls is hard to stop the balls falling into the hub as the arm is attached but maybe I'm missing a trick that'll become obvious once I've got an arm unit without a big hole in it.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Brucey
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Re: IGH lubrication; a smoking gun.

Postby Brucey » 2 Jun 2016, 9:46pm

that is a problem.

This is one bearing where I would not suggest that loose balls would be a good idea. The reason being that it is very difficult to assemble the bearing and impossible to check that it has been done right afterwards. Both these things are bad enough with a clipped bearing, but are bound to be worse with loose balls.

Does this link help?

http://bicikli.de/shop/SHIMANO-spare-part-Y-33R90200-SG-3C40-BALL-RETAINER-L-3/16X14-33R-9020-Shimano-Code-Y33R90200

cheers
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mjr
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Re: IGH lubrication; a smoking gun.

Postby mjr » 3 Jun 2016, 3:26pm

Brucey wrote:This is one bearing where I would not suggest that loose balls would be a good idea. The reason being that it is very difficult to assemble the bearing and impossible to check that it has been done right afterwards.

Would the bearing not be visible at all through the grease port?


Thanks. I navigated the slightly confusing checkout well enough to get a part-German order confirmation email, so we'll see if they've actually got stock or are like at least one English shop advertising stock when they really just try to buy from a wholesaler who doesn't admit the supply problem until a retailer tries to order.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Brucey
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Re: IGH lubrication; a smoking gun.

Postby Brucey » 3 Jun 2016, 4:31pm

re viewing through a grease port; I was thinking about that and if there is one in the right place I would suppose that you could at least verify that all the balls are in a clipped bearing.

However unless you could mark/identify one ball clearly, I doubt that you could easily count loose balls and be sure that they were all present and correct; the reason being that as you turn the hub, the balls are also on the move.

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StephenW
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Re: IGH lubrication; a smoking gun.

Postby StephenW » 21 Sep 2016, 6:44pm

I'm interested by this:

Using oil in coaster brakes isn't normally such a good idea because the brake can too easily run dry.


I know that there have been single-speed and multi-speed coaster brake hubs with oil lubrication in the past. Is there some particular feature of these hubs that makes them more suitable for oil?

I have a nexus 8 speed hub with coaster brake. Would it be OK to switch to oil lubrication through an oil port, so long as I topped it up regularly, like every few weeks? I was thinking that the leaking oil would be good for removing wear particles from the brake.

Brucey
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Re: IGH lubrication; a smoking gun.

Postby Brucey » 21 Sep 2016, 10:13pm

StephenW wrote:I'm interested by this:

Using oil in coaster brakes isn't normally such a good idea because the brake can too easily run dry.


I know that there have been single-speed and multi-speed coaster brake hubs with oil lubrication in the past. Is there some particular feature of these hubs that makes them more suitable for oil?


mostly if an oil port was fitted, the gears ran in oil and the brake was meant to run in grease, I think. No current hubs are built this way.

I have a nexus 8 speed hub with coaster brake. Would it be OK to switch to oil lubrication through an oil port, so long as I topped it up regularly, like every few weeks? I was thinking that the leaking oil would be good for removing wear particles from the brake.


Hmm, maybe. But then again oil will leak out of the RH side of the hub with most N8 hubs if you oil them. Possibly this might carry the wear debris in the reverse direction, i.e. from the brake to the gears?

cheers
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