I think I found the perfect gearing at last...

[Manc33]

I swapped so many things around to get the perfect setup, but I think have finally cracked it now - close ratio gearing with a good gear range - even on an 8 speed setup, which sounds impossible but here's how I did it:

Chainset: Triple, using a FD-R443.
Gearing: 52/38/24t

Cassette: CS-HG50 aka "Sora"
Gearing: 13,14,15,17,19,21,23,26t

This gives a gear range of 24.4" to 105.5" aka about 0.9 turns of the wheel in the lowest gear and exactly 4 turns in the highest gear.

Losing the 12t off the smaller end of the cassette (compared to the 12-23t I had on) means you get to keep the 14t.

On this cassette there are no bad jumps, here's the percentages:

13-14t = 7.7%
14-15t = 7.1%
15-17t = 13.3%
17-19t = 11.8%
19-21t = 10.5%
21-23t = 9.5%
23-26t = 13.0%

13.3% is the biggest jump it has from the 15t to the 17t (although a 16t would be bliss) but it is alright. I certainly don't ride along getting all miffed swapping from one sprocket to the other, pedaling too fast then too slow then too fast, the right gear is always there. 24x26t will get you up just about any hill (or you might as well get off and walk).

The 11-32t mountain bike cassette I had on at one stage (with the same 52/38/24t chainrings) had a 20% jump between the 15t and 18t and that was what I couldn't bear. Around 15/16/17/18t is exactly where I need it to be a close ratio (on flat roads in the middle ring).

About 0.90 turns of the rear wheel is the low gear "sweet spot" for me. I had it as low as 19.8 gear inches on a 24t granny and 32t low sprocket. Now that is just pointless, but I had to try it to gauge it. A "SGS" cage rear mech is also a must if doing this.

If you have a big gear range you'll have jumps, if you have a small gear range you won't have a low enough low gear. Nearly all road bikes sold are aimed at racing. Even a 50/39/30 with a 12-25t cassette only gives you a lowest gear of 1.2 turns of the wheel - this is a gear thats 30% higher than it is now with it being 24/26t and the nice thing is I have that 52t outer chainring, meaning having a 13t smallest sprocket isn't all that bad for spinning out.

[pwa]

That is the sort of gear arrangement I could live with. It all centres on that chainset with a 24t small ring. Personally, I am never worried about big steps in the gears as I am happy to vary my cadence, so I could handle a larger sprocket and take the gears even lower.

[chris_suffolk]

That's quite a range on the front = 52 to 24, how well does the front changer cope?

[ANTONISH]

I'm not sure what sort of cycling this range is ideal for - obviously it is for you.
For touring and hilly audax rides I would want a lower bottom gear ( I have 24 x 34). I wouldn't need the 52 ring - a 46 would be adequate (for me).
For club rides and most audax rides I have a 48/34 chainset with an 11 to 34 MTB cassette. I would happily lose the 11t but it means using a heavier cassette.
All gearing is a compromise and depends on the individual.

[Mick F]

That's quite a range on the front = 52 to 24, how well does the front changer cope?

I'm using 53/42/28 and my Campag Comp front mech is fine. I considered getting a 26t instead of the 28t and it would have been fine with that too.

52 to 24 would be ok as well I would think. Maybe the chain would be bottoming out when on the small cog, but you wouldn't really select that.

[freeflow]

I was using a 52/39/24 triple and it worked fine. However I didn't get enough use from the 52 chainring so I changed to 44/32/22 which I find more suited to fresh legs (44) and tired legs/hills (32) when Audaxing. This is with a 12-36 cassette. Having done a number of 200k and 300k rides I'm now looking at bbb cassettes so I can construct a 14-36 cassette. A 40/30/20 chainset is also an option but in that case I'd probably revert to a 12-28 cassette.

[Manc33]

I started out on a standard 50/39/30 chainset, which only had a 20t overall difference.

First I got a 11-32t cassette, next I got a 28t granny ring to replace the 30t.

You'd think that would be enough, but I wanted even lower gearing... eventually I ended up on another chainset altogether (Spa Cycles) because you can buy any size of chainring and build it up how you want.

First I tried 46/34/24, then I upped the middle and outer, while leaving the granny, to a 48/36/24 and then, with the front mech still coping, I went for the final one... 52/38/24. Going all the way from a 48t outer to a 52t was most worrying, but after setting it up, it does work. The difference stated by Shimano should be 22t difference between granny and outer, but it can be pushed quite a bit with the right front mech.

I had to use the FD-R443. I think there's an Ultegra triple front mech that also might work, but not with MTB shifters (which I have on) it has to be this funny FD-R443 with a MTB pull on it (but that can cope with large road chainrings).

Some things cannot be pushed like this though, for example I must use a medium cage mech, a short cage won't work and neither will a "super" long cage (sloppy changes), it has to be this in between one. Overall capacity is 41t which is 1t over the stated capacity so I took a link out of the chain and its running perfectly including big>big not ruining anything if it were accidentally shifted into that gear.

I would ideally have a Miche custom cassette on, but I think its probably expensive like £30 or £40 for a cassette when I normally only spend £10-£15 on one.

On 8 speed this would be my ideal cassette but it doesn't exist:

13/14/15/16/17/18/22/26

Now that includes not just the 14t but the 16t and 18t that is currently not present on my standard 13-26t Sora cassette I am on now (13/14/15/17/19/21/23/26).

[freeflow]

I'm using Ultegra 6603 STI with ultegra 6607 front mech and it seems to cope no matter what combination I throw at it. I did have a 52/44/24 combination at one stage but this was really only to try out what a 44/24 double would feel like, and my experience is why I went 44/32/22. I'm currently using a 9 speed XT shadow rear mech with a long cage and the shifting is very very good, Far more so than the original Ultegra rear mech or the conventional XT mech I was using before a chain problem trashed it.

[pwa]

My understanding is that a front mech is likely to work okay if the difference between the outer and middle rings (on a triple) is the same as on the chainset it was designed for, which is about 13 teeth for recent Ultegra triples. The inner of the three rings can be a good bit smaller than the 30t of an Ultegra triple chainset. Also, I have found that with un-indexed front shifting (bar end levers) a 10 speed front mech is fine with a 9 speed chain.

[beardy]

There is, of course, no perfect gearing. It depends on rider's strength, fitness, style and then on terrain and load not to mention different wheel sizes.

I agree that your set up is a good one (by that I mean suits me ) I have similar but with larger rear cassettes on my bikes.

On 8 speed this would be my ideal cassette but it doesn't exist:

13/14/15/16/17/18/22/26

Now that includes not just the 14t but the 16t and 18t that is currently not present on my standard 13-26t Sora cassette I am on now (13/14/15/17/19/21/23/26).

I would prefer your existing cassette, I spend more time at the lower end of the cassette and would be more bothered by a 22-26 gap than a 15-17 gap.

The cassettes available have to be a compromise for a whole range of riders and that means they are not perfect for everyone. I agree that you have a good range and a nice close ratios but this may lead to needing more front changes and a little less range (especially high that nobody really needs).
If your terrain is more constant that isnt an issue, my terrain is "bumpy" which means close ratios are not my normal concern and I only notice it on what are unusual roads for me.

[tatanab]

The cassettes available have to be a compromise for a whole range of riders and that means they are not perfect for everyone.

You can assemble your own cassettes with sprockets of choice from Miche or Marchisio.

7 speed I have 14,16,18,20,22,25,28 with 48/36/24 chain rings
8 speed I have 13,15,16,17,19,21,24,28 with 46/36/24 chain rings.
10 speed I have 12,13,14,15,16,17,19,21,24,28 with 40/24 chain rings

Yes the cost is a little more than an off the peg cassette at about £50 for an 8 speed with spacers and so on, but the Marchisio ones at least are very hard wearing and of course when things wear you only replace the ones that need it.

[Manc33]

It is true if you do a high mileage then Miche would end up being cheaper in the long run. The biggest sprockets get replaced far less often and those would probably be the most expensive sprockets with them being bigger.

Every cassette I have ever replaced had probably only been worn out on 2 or 3 sprockets.

I had a cassette on before the 13-26t which was:

12/13/14/15/17/19/21/23

That was quite nice except a 105 "road" mech doesn't really suit it. Its getting pretty confusing because now, road groupsets are including 28t, 30t and even 32t sprockets. The Shimano 105 (5800) 11 speed setup offers a 11-32t cassette. This means a "medium cage" Shimano 105 ten speed rear mech (RD-5701) has a 87mm gap between jockey wheels. Older "long cage" (medium in reality) mechs were 75mm and so on. So if you do have a "small low sprocket" like a 23t, be careful! I just can't use a short cage because I have such a big chain wrap. The annoying thing is older "GS" cage rear mechs used to handle right down to a 21t and now its got to be 25t or over.

I mean as road mechs get more like that... the less chance there is it will work on a 23t low sprocket. Looking at the cassette options in that particular groupset seems the best bet. I had the b-tension screw removed totally on my 105 rear mech and it still isn't tight enough on the jockey wheel in the lowest gear.

I have also discovered that you can't perfectly set up a 10sp rear mech on a 8sp cassette/shifters. It works, or seems to, but after a few gear changes you notice a "tinkling" noise from the chain, it is impossible to get it adjusted exactly right like I can with a 8/9 speed rear mech. A lot of people seem to say the same thing "It didn't work but it was smooth enough for my winter bike" sort of thing. This is road only I might add, on MTB 10sp really is different, enough to make it unusable with a 9sp cassette.

I won't use it that way because it is wearing the chain and cassette. On a certain sprocket, the rear mech tries to pull the chain towards the smaller sprockets, on another sprocket it will pull it the other way, not enough to make the chain skip or anything, but I can tell its there because of the tinkling noises and rough sound of the drivetrain... on XTR shifters I don't think so somehow lol. Solution - get a 5/6/7/8/9 speed road mech, not 10sp.

The problem is, quality stuff like 105 and Ultegra just isn't being manufactured in 8sp any more. With MTB parts, Alivio is all we have got left of 8sp now. Road parts, even the 3xxx series "Sora" is now @ 9sp and we are stuck with Claris 2400 (which was an improvement over 2300).

[Samuel D]

The problem is, quality stuff like 105 and Ultegra just isn't being manufactured in 8sp any more. With MTB parts, Alivio is all we have got left of 8sp now. Road parts, even the 3xxx series "Sora" is now @ 9sp and we are stuck with Claris 2400 (which was an improvement over 2300).

But aside from friction in the pulleys (avoided if you wish by buying better pulleys), the low-end stuff seems to work fine. I use a 2300 rear derailleur and find it to be excellent. Possibly I’m not discerning enough, though I have ridden bikes with expensive components.

Gearing, on the other hand, I could complain about at length!

I have chosen to sacrifice range in favour of a low Q factor, close ratios, as few front shifts as possible, and better chain angles. I run a 46T/34T double chainset with an eight-speed 12-13-15-17-19-21-23-25T cassette, which gives me a range of about 36–101 gear inches. This wouldn’t work well in very hilly areas (but note that Velocio himself recommended a range of 35–85 gear inches for touring). In truth I would like a smaller inner ring but can’t affordably or elegantly get it. The big ring is right-sized for my mix of sports cycling and longer-distance stuff. Sometimes I do entire rides without shifting off the big ring, which is just the way I like it.

There are some subtle advantages to this arrangement:

• the flat-road, still-air cruising gear is near the middle of the cassette, leaving options on either side for varying wind, terrain, and energy levels
• the chain is at a good angle while cruising, especially so because my cadence varies favourably as my intensity (speed) varies; that is, high-speed cruising requires a surprisingly similar gear to just rolling along
• since the big ring (46T) is smaller than on most road doubles, headwinds and easy climbs don’t usually force a front shift. Front shifts, when required, are smooth because of the moderate 12T difference
• since the big ring is larger than the middle ring of most triples, the cruising ratios are effectively closer with a typical cassette – a point not always appreciated
• it combines close ratios with a durable and cheap eight-speed drivetrain.

Nonetheless, I don’t often use the highest gear. When I replace the cassette I will probably choose your 13–26T model. That would modify my range to about 34–93 gear inches, which may work well.

It’s curious that both you and I miss the 16T sprocket despite running different chainrings. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be an easy way to get it in the land of eight-speed Shimano.

[Manc33]

I only want a 16t because I know the 2 sprockets before it (13t-14t and 14t-15t) only have 8% jumps, then from the 15t to 17t the jump is a lot more, 13.3%. It sounds a lot worse on paper here than it does when riding the bike.

I never realized how ingenious those 8-speed 13-26t cassettes were until I looked at the tooth sizes. For example on the 12-25t you don't have the 14t and you don't have the 26t. The 13-26t has everything the 12-25t has (except a 12t) and yet it is all close ratio and includes the 14t the 12-25t doesn't include.

If you can sacrifice the 12t I think its miles better. I remember grumbling about sacrificing the 11t and using a 12t lol, but its overkill. I think a 13t small sprocket is about the sweet spot.

I have got it set now so I can pretty much use sprockets 3,4,5,6 on the middle chainring on the flat. It would take a tailwind to get me on the 52t chainring, and a hill to get me using the 23t and 26t so its perfect. Then again I have weak legs and just don't really get on the 52t much.

Another (expensive) option is go to 9/10/11 speed, but if I was going to do that I would go straight from 8sp to 11sp and if I was going to 11sp well... then I would probably just get a used Rohloff hub (wouldn't we all).

The only pitfall to my chainset is the jumps on the triple itself, but I prefer it to having smaller rings and a cassette with big jumps. The nice thing is I have the 5 biggest sprockets on the granny ring that do not overlap with anything on the middle ring and then also 4 sprockets on the outer chainring that do not overlap with the middle either. Going from 11-32t to 13-26t I "gained" 2 gears in that sense.

[Elizabethsdad]

Think i'll stick with my Nuvinci N360 hub gear.