Sometime back I listed my concerns with a tooth problem,then,later replied to another member concerning his query over some tooth concern.
Move forward.
I have recently returned fro a trip to Romania to see the beginning/end of Eurovelo 6 which is at Constanta(expect no Golden Arches!) Returning to Belgrade(Hungary) I got engaged with a couple of Aussies who were having a lot of dental work done to them and,indeed,had flown over from Oz to have this work done and a holiday. (In my previous post I think I mentioned how expensive dental work was in Australia,and how many Australian seek dental work abroad). Well,they gave me plenty of info about the clinic they were having this work done,and where they had some dental work done before. Suffice to say,it sounded very,very good...professional, and a lot cheaper than elsewhere. They told me people were flying in from America,Germany,Holland and Oz for this work,and some were at the clinic they attended
Leaving Budapest my wife espied a counter at the airport advertising Dental work in Budapest. 5 minutes later she saw a lady come away from the counter. I went to that counter and got the details of the dental practice...then went over to speak to the English couple. Their story was almost identical to the Aussies I'd met earlier that morning,but that they were using a different dental practice. Turns out Budapest is a must-go place for good professional(but economic)dental treatment.
I could go on,but wont. Still, anyone startin finishing the Eurovelo route 6 at Budapest(and needing some dental work doing!)may well think of having it done at Budapest.
I have the two recommendad dental practices particulars if you want,but don't know about the rules regs on this site in case this post is seen as some sortof advert.
The English couple had flown over 1day to return the next for assessment. The Aussies were there for a couple o months. I don't think either couple were 'plants' for securing dentistry work!!
I was told either practice can/does arrange transport and accommodation if wanted.
Teeth matters
Re: Teeth matters
Poland is also good for cheap but high-quality dental work. I daresay the whole of Eastern Europe is!
Re: Teeth matters
Now back from my UK dentist. I go expecting to have a bridge. Oh no,you cant have a bridge,you have no other tooth for it to secure to. ???? But you told me on my last visit to you that we would go ahead with a bridge. Oh well,sorry if I gave you that impression,now you either have a denture or implants! Denture £220 or implant £2K a tooth.
Mmmmm
Me remembers my last time a this dentist: No I cant do that,but I have a friend who can(read ££££) And,by the way,I can't do the extraction either. Me: ??? I then write to the Chief Dental Practioner in the local teaching hospital. He then replies to me(and copies a letter to my dentist),Mr X you can do Tyreon's tooth,get to it or we will be looking into you. Result: the work is done. And next time I meet the dentist he's all but servile!!
Is it back to Budapest?
On a deeper level,why don't I trust anyone anymore? Way back when I was told,we have the best army in the world. Well,we were whooped in Afghanistan <moderated>(yeah,they did have AK47s). Don't drink that foreign muck(French water)it'll make you queer(as in ill). Well,I drank it and am still living. Told,we have the best education system in the world,but now having to import decent education teachers in mathematics by Chinese people. We have the best trains in the world! UK privatised network rail speed 65mph, French and Japanese speed,240mph. We have the most honourable and respected parliamentary system in the world! And you've seen the expenses scandal. And the judicial system...yer havin a larf aren't you! Is it me or my age or the failure of Top Table propaganda that's going awry?
Mmmmm
Me remembers my last time a this dentist: No I cant do that,but I have a friend who can(read ££££) And,by the way,I can't do the extraction either. Me: ??? I then write to the Chief Dental Practioner in the local teaching hospital. He then replies to me(and copies a letter to my dentist),Mr X you can do Tyreon's tooth,get to it or we will be looking into you. Result: the work is done. And next time I meet the dentist he's all but servile!!
Is it back to Budapest?
On a deeper level,why don't I trust anyone anymore? Way back when I was told,we have the best army in the world. Well,we were whooped in Afghanistan <moderated>(yeah,they did have AK47s). Don't drink that foreign muck(French water)it'll make you queer(as in ill). Well,I drank it and am still living. Told,we have the best education system in the world,but now having to import decent education teachers in mathematics by Chinese people. We have the best trains in the world! UK privatised network rail speed 65mph, French and Japanese speed,240mph. We have the most honourable and respected parliamentary system in the world! And you've seen the expenses scandal. And the judicial system...yer havin a larf aren't you! Is it me or my age or the failure of Top Table propaganda that's going awry?
Re: Teeth matters
I've found dentists "weird" in what they will/want to undertake.
Since last summer when I had bad tooth ache through an infected root, my dentist wanted to just remove the tooth. I mentioned root canal then crown which she said could be done but root canal would have to be private (£££). so change NHS dentist and new dentist want to remove it. So I say root canal and crown and he agrees it will work and (and following a thread here, maybe the same one) I insist and he agrees (with a 2 months wait). So root canal fails (he can only find one of the 3 root canals) and he wants to refer me to a specialist (£££) though no guarantee they will find the roots. So I decide best to remove it and have an implant (£££). And he starts to get all negative about risks when he wanted to remove the tooth to start with !!!
Felt like telling him to make his mind-up about what his preferred treatment actually is !! and the daft thing is that the root canal referral would have been to a completely different clinic whereas the implant would be with their own company (and even more) - so it's got nothing to do with generating £££.
Ian
Since last summer when I had bad tooth ache through an infected root, my dentist wanted to just remove the tooth. I mentioned root canal then crown which she said could be done but root canal would have to be private (£££). so change NHS dentist and new dentist want to remove it. So I say root canal and crown and he agrees it will work and (and following a thread here, maybe the same one) I insist and he agrees (with a 2 months wait). So root canal fails (he can only find one of the 3 root canals) and he wants to refer me to a specialist (£££) though no guarantee they will find the roots. So I decide best to remove it and have an implant (£££). And he starts to get all negative about risks when he wanted to remove the tooth to start with !!!
Felt like telling him to make his mind-up about what his preferred treatment actually is !! and the daft thing is that the root canal referral would have been to a completely different clinic whereas the implant would be with their own company (and even more) - so it's got nothing to do with generating £££.
Ian
Re: Teeth matters
I think its worth relating my own recent dental experience here now.
Several weeks ago I paid a visit to my dentist and we discussed what work I needed to have carried out. I ended up with three options; one an NHS Denture two a private flexible denture and the last one was implants.
Given I remember how awful my mums dentures looked and that implants were so very expensive I opted for the second option of having a flexible denture.I am still dreading the thought of having to wear it and at the same time praying I get used to it because if I don't I am going to have to get a £5 - 6000 loan to pay for implants.
So choice made I asked the dentist how much the denture was going to cost me and without any hesitation whatsoever he said £1000.
Which to me is still a lot of money but what can you do so I gave him £500 as a deposit.
Once back home I began to question in my mind where he actually got this figure from as he had not shown me any evidence to substantiate such a high cost.
Because of the doubt that I now had I made an appointment to see another dentist and to also get a quotation from him.
It turned out that this was a good decision on my part as his quotation at £500 for the same denture and the fact that I needed more work done than the first dentist proved my point even more.
So if you do get a quotation for dental work that you feel is a little excessive I would definitely suggest that you too get a second opinion.
Several weeks ago I paid a visit to my dentist and we discussed what work I needed to have carried out. I ended up with three options; one an NHS Denture two a private flexible denture and the last one was implants.
Given I remember how awful my mums dentures looked and that implants were so very expensive I opted for the second option of having a flexible denture.I am still dreading the thought of having to wear it and at the same time praying I get used to it because if I don't I am going to have to get a £5 - 6000 loan to pay for implants.
So choice made I asked the dentist how much the denture was going to cost me and without any hesitation whatsoever he said £1000.
Which to me is still a lot of money but what can you do so I gave him £500 as a deposit.
Once back home I began to question in my mind where he actually got this figure from as he had not shown me any evidence to substantiate such a high cost.
Because of the doubt that I now had I made an appointment to see another dentist and to also get a quotation from him.
It turned out that this was a good decision on my part as his quotation at £500 for the same denture and the fact that I needed more work done than the first dentist proved my point even more.
So if you do get a quotation for dental work that you feel is a little excessive I would definitely suggest that you too get a second opinion.
Re: Teeth matters
Well, I've been on Denplan for many years now. It's not a cheap option, you pay a monthly subscription which varies from patient to patient and is calculated based on your overall dental health. Seeing as it's the dentist who'll be providing your treatment who also does the initial assessment here, there is I suppose room for a bit of dodgy practice here: one just has to hope that one's chosen dentist is honest enough!
Anyway, for my wife and me jointly, the monthly sub. is just over £50 - so about £25 each, i.e. £300 per annum. For that you get:
Debatable whether or not it's worth the cost, but NHS dentistry is well-nigh unobtainable in our leafy middle-class area. And it's a bigger slice out of our budget now we're both retired.
Seeing as dental health is now, according to news reports, inescapably linked to other health issues including heart disease and cancer, this neglect of a vital part of our health system is a scandal. Basic NHS dentistry free at the point of treatment would be a start. How much would it cost the taxpayer?
Anyway, for my wife and me jointly, the monthly sub. is just over £50 - so about £25 each, i.e. £300 per annum. For that you get:
- Free checkups and routine cleaning.
- Free hygienist (when advised by the dentist).
- Free fillings (including root canals, I believe - at least I haven't been charged yet).
- Significantly discounted prices (around 50%) for crowns and bridges. And they will be of higher-grade materials than NHS ones.
Debatable whether or not it's worth the cost, but NHS dentistry is well-nigh unobtainable in our leafy middle-class area. And it's a bigger slice out of our budget now we're both retired.
Seeing as dental health is now, according to news reports, inescapably linked to other health issues including heart disease and cancer, this neglect of a vital part of our health system is a scandal. Basic NHS dentistry free at the point of treatment would be a start. How much would it cost the taxpayer?
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
Re: Teeth matters
Pete I completely agree with what you say it is a disgrace how it is such a struggle to get a NHS dentist and vitally important to regularly see a dentist because of spotting other health issues.
My mate is on the same plan as you are and he wonders whether its because of that he never seems to need any work carried out.
£300 plus only a discount on any major work that needs to be carried out does seem expensive to me.
I wonder how much implants would cost for you being on this plan.
My mate is on the same plan as you are and he wonders whether its because of that he never seems to need any work carried out.
£300 plus only a discount on any major work that needs to be carried out does seem expensive to me.
I wonder how much implants would cost for you being on this plan.
Re: Teeth matters
661-Pete wrote:Anyway, for my wife and me jointly, the monthly sub. is just over £50 - so about £25 each, i.e. £300 per annum. For that you get:I don't know about implants or dentures, I assume they are offered at a discount too.
- Free checkups and routine cleaning.
- Free hygienist (when advised by the dentist).
- Free fillings (including root canals, I believe - at least I haven't been charged yet).
- Significantly discounted prices (around 50%) for crowns and bridges. And they will be of higher-grade materials than NHS ones.
...
(Ignoring the fact that you can't find an NHS dentist), for £300 each per year you actually need a fair amount of NHS treatment to exceed that. My teeth are "suffering" and I changed dentists earlier this year needing a root canal filling followed by a crown and several repairs to existing fillings. And whilst this work was being done another tooth broke needing another crown ... and the entire treatment on NHS costs only the amount of the highest band you reach i.e. around £200 for everything (crowns, root canal, etc.).
So, if you can find an NHS dentist, it the insurance cover thing would depend on the inclusion or exclusion of implants.
But there are limits to the NHS treatments (I never even thought about before but I'm aware of them now) and I wonder what the insurance cover has regarding such aspects. For example, I'd never appreciated that root canals can fail if the dentist cannot find all the root canals in the tooth being done. I was having a molar done which had 2 root canals. The dentist was the large practice's expert on root canal work and it seems they allocate 1hr which should be enough unless the root canals are hard to find. In my case he could only find one of the 3 and said I'd have to be referred to a private practice as they'd stand a better chance as they use high power microscopy (something NHS dentists don't tend to have apparently) - and that starts at £800 (I'm going for implants rather than risk spending loads on a procedure that may easily fail).
With the crowns, I've have porcelain bonded to metal (although apparently the one I'm having fitted in a few days might end-up with some metal showing as it's "adjusted" because the tooth prep was "conservative", I wanted a white one so the porcelain has to be thinner. I believe all types of crown are available on the NHS and which you get is decided by the dentist unless you start discussing. At least that is my personal experience.
Ian
Re: Teeth matters
661-Pete wrote:...Seeing as dental health is now, according to news reports, inescapably linked to other health issues including heart disease and cancer, this neglect of a vital part of our health system is a scandal. ...
I've seen a some of these reports but never seen any details of the relation. Reports seem to report the correlation (i.e. that they are linked) but do dental issues cause heart disease/cancer, do bad teeth indicate a poor diet which in addition to rotting teeth causes other health issues, or do bad teeth cause the other health issues or do the other health issues cause bad teeth ?
The reports I've seen don't every go into exactly what the relationship is, just that there does seem to be a correlation. And a correlation does not indicate a causal relationship.
Ian
Re: Teeth matters
You've probably read the same reports in the press as I've seen, e.g. this one:Psamathe wrote:I've seen a some of these reports but never seen any details of the relation. Reports seem to report the correlation (i.e. that they are linked) but do dental issues cause heart disease/cancer, do bad teeth indicate a poor diet which in addition to rotting teeth causes other health issues, or do bad teeth cause the other health issues or do the other health issues cause bad teeth ?
The reports I've seen don't every go into exactly what the relationship is, just that there does seem to be a correlation. And a correlation does not indicate a causal relationship.
Ian
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle ... bad-health
It does seem to imply that the bacteria that form around decayed teeth and gums can migrate to, and lead to problems elsewhere in the body. But if you want more technical stuff you'll have to search the medical literature yourself, it's a bit beyond me!
My Denplan scheme, as originally offered by my then dentist (since retired, but I still go to the same practice) was in essence a take-it-or-leave-it option: he was giving up NHS treatment (as - alas! - so many dentists have done over the years) so my only alternatives were: pay the full cost for each treatment, or find another dentist. And he was a good dentist, by my reckoning. So it was represented to me as a form of medical insurance. It goes without saying that insurance penalises the ones who never need to claim - car owners amongst you, consider how much you're shelling out in car insurance premiums, even if you've never made a claim! (My one and only claim under my car insurance, over the past 15 years, was for a windscreen replacement).
So: Denplan bad value for money? By some benchmarks, certainly. But if either my wife or I have the misfortune to need several major treatments over the course of a single year, it would probably pay for itself.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
Re: Teeth matters
Having started this topic I will continue...
I have recently returned from Spain wherein in two (small)cities I saw VERY MODERN LOOKING dental practices advertising various dental work,including dental implants. They looked the bees-knees,and I guess were compliant with Professional Spanish Dental Practice alongside EU legislation.( I know,it could be show!) I meant to go in and ask their prices,but one day it was so hot...the other, the place was closed.
Travelling through the country staying,eating and whatnot...I guestimate prices some 40% lower than here in the UK. I now wonder if dental work in Spain might be worth considering,especially for two implants.
My wife's girlfriend 'best mate' works in Harley St(dental nurse),and the next time my wife meets her girlfriend I have it for my wife to ask for her opinion.
Here I see globalisation as loosing secure work,maybe I have to take advantage of what it might offer me elsewhere for a cheap return airline ticket
I have recently returned from Spain wherein in two (small)cities I saw VERY MODERN LOOKING dental practices advertising various dental work,including dental implants. They looked the bees-knees,and I guess were compliant with Professional Spanish Dental Practice alongside EU legislation.( I know,it could be show!) I meant to go in and ask their prices,but one day it was so hot...the other, the place was closed.
Travelling through the country staying,eating and whatnot...I guestimate prices some 40% lower than here in the UK. I now wonder if dental work in Spain might be worth considering,especially for two implants.
My wife's girlfriend 'best mate' works in Harley St(dental nurse),and the next time my wife meets her girlfriend I have it for my wife to ask for her opinion.
Here I see globalisation as loosing secure work,maybe I have to take advantage of what it might offer me elsewhere for a cheap return airline ticket
Re: Teeth matters
With regard to implants: I wonder if looking at overseas pricing when based in the UK we are not giving adequate consideration to the practicalities. I'm soon starting to have my implants started. Going to a local UK based practice and I'll be paying £4000 (ouch). And if it all goes as expected it will take between 5 and 6 visits each at least a month apart (some a lot longer). So, were I to have the same procedure done overseas undoubtedly the cheque I write out to the dental practice would be a lot lower. But add-in my travel costs (5 or 6 visits) flights, airport parking, etc., hotel bills, disruption to my life, dog being looked after, etc. and I wonder if the overseas option will be cheap to the same extent.
When initially looking around I was wondering how one practice could offer estimated £1200 per implant whilst others are £2000+. And I think a lot might come down to how complications are charged for. Apparently one potential "failure" is where the titanium implant fails to fuse into the bone. If that happens (no idea how often it does), my £2k each implant include the removal of the failed implant and then re-doing it (which may easily work) within the agreed charges. I wonder if the lower cost practices include covering risk of failure. I know where I'm going I have a several page "contract" letter which clearly identifies risks covered and guarantees (they are very clear about what they can and will do within the original fees should there be subsequent problems and the requirements on me to keep those guarantees).
But the above is based on my personal limited experience - I have know expert knowledge beyond that experience.
Ian
When initially looking around I was wondering how one practice could offer estimated £1200 per implant whilst others are £2000+. And I think a lot might come down to how complications are charged for. Apparently one potential "failure" is where the titanium implant fails to fuse into the bone. If that happens (no idea how often it does), my £2k each implant include the removal of the failed implant and then re-doing it (which may easily work) within the agreed charges. I wonder if the lower cost practices include covering risk of failure. I know where I'm going I have a several page "contract" letter which clearly identifies risks covered and guarantees (they are very clear about what they can and will do within the original fees should there be subsequent problems and the requirements on me to keep those guarantees).
But the above is based on my personal limited experience - I have know expert knowledge beyond that experience.
Ian
Re: Teeth matters
Psamathe wrote:With regard to implants: I wonder if looking at overseas pricing when based in the UK we are not giving adequate consideration to the practicalities. I'm soon starting to have my implants started. Going to a local UK based practice and I'll be paying £4000 (ouch). And if it all goes as expected it will take between 5 and 6 visits each at least a month apart (some a lot longer). So, were I to have the same procedure done overseas undoubtedly the cheque I write out to the dental practice would be a lot lower. But add-in my travel costs (5 or 6 visits) flights, airport parking, etc., hotel bills, disruption to my life, dog being looked after, etc. and I wonder if the overseas option will be cheap to the same extent.
When initially looking around I was wondering how one practice could offer estimated £1200 per implant whilst others are £2000+. And I think a lot might come down to how complications are charged for. Apparently one potential "failure" is where the titanium implant fails to fuse into the bone. If that happens (no idea how often it does), my £2k each implant include the removal of the failed implant and then re-doing it (which may easily work) within the agreed charges. I wonder if the lower cost practices include covering risk of failure. I know where I'm going I have a several page "contract" letter which clearly identifies risks covered and guarantees (they are very clear about what they can and will do within the original fees should there be subsequent problems and the requirements on me to keep those guarantees).
But the above is based on my personal limited experience - I have know expert knowledge beyond that experience.
Ian
You make a fair point Ian and the only thing I can add to it is that my new dentist said that he had hoped that just like what happened when video recorders became popular and they became cheaper to buy that the price of implants would also plummet as they became more popular but of cause as we know it never happened.
Re: Teeth matters
I know the 'Budapest' Clinique has a contact dentist in London. I guess if something went awry or amiss you would be contacting that dentist for a re-evaluation,maybe they do follow-ups after the dental work.
My 'Budapest' Clinique leaflet is on my window-sill: still undecided as to what to do,waiting for more 'feedback' from the Harley St nurse.
The 'educated' people I met in Budapest seemed to have done their homework and research and found it 5*. People from around Europe and the world were flying there for treatment. From the limited amount of people I spoke to the work setting and the work practices and dental treatment they had there was 1st class and not the...very difficult-to-do-dental-job-government-pays-me-same-money-as-having-tooth-removed-job-so-I'll-go-for-taking-tooth-out-option. 'V' for working for peanuts.
I guess one worse case scenario is that you have to have the implanted tooth removed. That would be removed here. You would then be paying a visit to a no-win-no-fee solicitor who would pursue the case under EU legislation.
I tend to believe implant dentistry will expand as knowledge and use becomes more easy to access. Costs will come down...or they should. But I expect poor practice to be out there as some dentists want to take short-cuts to make £££.
My 'Budapest' Clinique leaflet is on my window-sill: still undecided as to what to do,waiting for more 'feedback' from the Harley St nurse.
The 'educated' people I met in Budapest seemed to have done their homework and research and found it 5*. People from around Europe and the world were flying there for treatment. From the limited amount of people I spoke to the work setting and the work practices and dental treatment they had there was 1st class and not the...very difficult-to-do-dental-job-government-pays-me-same-money-as-having-tooth-removed-job-so-I'll-go-for-taking-tooth-out-option. 'V' for working for peanuts.
I guess one worse case scenario is that you have to have the implanted tooth removed. That would be removed here. You would then be paying a visit to a no-win-no-fee solicitor who would pursue the case under EU legislation.
I tend to believe implant dentistry will expand as knowledge and use becomes more easy to access. Costs will come down...or they should. But I expect poor practice to be out there as some dentists want to take short-cuts to make £££.
Re: Teeth matters
I had the 1st stage of the 1st implant done last week (the metal thingy placed in jawbone).
Must confess for the couple of days after the procedure I was asking myself if it was worthwhile. Swelled-up badly and was not "comfortable", though not painful (I did not take pain killers). I suppose I was worried that it had become infected and infection is apparently the biggest risk to the things failing. Swelling went down after a few days so now it's just waiting for gum to heal then stitches out.
I would have had 1st one other side) done over a month ago but the tooth needed a surgical removal in the end (took 1.5 hours to get the tooth out, incl. drilling bone, etc.) and the hole was too large so have to wait a few months for bone to re-form in socket before going back to implant that side. Had to return to dentist following day briefly when one of the stitches came out.
My point: Had I flown overseas for the procedure I would have felt very vulnerable had the swelling e.g. been infection or anything. Being in UK meant I could call and dentist would have seen me same day (they gave 24hr emergency numbers and everything). So, even given the (probably) higher costs in the UK and knowing what I've learnt so far I would still chose a local UK dentist.
Dentist seems to decide the type of implant once they have opened-up the gum to expose the bone. Looks like my 1st one is going to need 4 visits to complete (1st visit: implant (now in); 2nd visit: open and fit abutment(?) and wait for gum to heal again; 3rd visit: impressions for "crown"; 4th visit: fit "crown" to abutment - system I seem to be having http://www.bicon.com/tech/t_SM_sp01.html). which would be quite a high overhead in flights and hotels when using an overseas dental practice.
Ian
Must confess for the couple of days after the procedure I was asking myself if it was worthwhile. Swelled-up badly and was not "comfortable", though not painful (I did not take pain killers). I suppose I was worried that it had become infected and infection is apparently the biggest risk to the things failing. Swelling went down after a few days so now it's just waiting for gum to heal then stitches out.
I would have had 1st one other side) done over a month ago but the tooth needed a surgical removal in the end (took 1.5 hours to get the tooth out, incl. drilling bone, etc.) and the hole was too large so have to wait a few months for bone to re-form in socket before going back to implant that side. Had to return to dentist following day briefly when one of the stitches came out.
My point: Had I flown overseas for the procedure I would have felt very vulnerable had the swelling e.g. been infection or anything. Being in UK meant I could call and dentist would have seen me same day (they gave 24hr emergency numbers and everything). So, even given the (probably) higher costs in the UK and knowing what I've learnt so far I would still chose a local UK dentist.
Dentist seems to decide the type of implant once they have opened-up the gum to expose the bone. Looks like my 1st one is going to need 4 visits to complete (1st visit: implant (now in); 2nd visit: open and fit abutment(?) and wait for gum to heal again; 3rd visit: impressions for "crown"; 4th visit: fit "crown" to abutment - system I seem to be having http://www.bicon.com/tech/t_SM_sp01.html). which would be quite a high overhead in flights and hotels when using an overseas dental practice.
Ian