Measuring Blood Pressure

Jdsk
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Re: Measuring Blood Pressure

Post by Jdsk »

S2L wrote: 13 Feb 2022, 11:14am
Jdsk wrote: 13 Feb 2022, 10:19am
S2L wrote: 13 Feb 2022, 9:53amHave you thought of trying a plant based diet? Pretty much everyone who abandons meat and dairy see their cholesterol drop like a stone within weeks. There is no real drawback, despite the scaremongering stories about iron and B12 deficiency. In reality it's very rare to have any deficiency, if you include many food groups in your diet (veg, fruit, pulses, grains, nuts...)...
Anyone considering this type of diet should be aware of the possible effects on bone mineral density and fractures. And take countermeasures.

But of course everyone should take countermeasures.

"Vegetarian and vegan diets and risks of total and site-specific fractures: results from the prospective EPIC-Oxford study"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33222682/

"Dietary patterns and hip fracture in the Adventist Health Study 2: combined vitamin D and calcium supplementation mitigate increased hip fracture risk among vegans"
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/advance-a ... 95/6272600
Also, vegetarians should not be mixed with Vegan, they do consume dairy, allegedly the most readily available source of calcium.
Categorisation of diets is complex. The diets under study are described in each of the reports.

Jonathan
S2L
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Re: Measuring Blood Pressure

Post by S2L »

Jdsk wrote: 13 Feb 2022, 11:20am
S2L wrote: 13 Feb 2022, 11:14am
Jdsk wrote: 13 Feb 2022, 10:19am
Anyone considering this type of diet should be aware of the possible effects on bone mineral density and fractures. And take countermeasures.

But of course everyone should take countermeasures.

"Vegetarian and vegan diets and risks of total and site-specific fractures: results from the prospective EPIC-Oxford study"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33222682/

"Dietary patterns and hip fracture in the Adventist Health Study 2: combined vitamin D and calcium supplementation mitigate increased hip fracture risk among vegans"
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/advance-a ... 95/6272600
Isn’t it the other way round? It seems that hip fractures and the likes are far more common in countries that consume high amounts of dairy, like Northern Europe… could be down to D3 deficiency, mind you. If you take country that hardly consume any, in the Far East, the difference is quite striking…
The effect has been suspected for some time. These two studies greatly improve the quality of the evidence.

Jonathan
And yet, epidemiological studies on Asian versus western populations, show a much higher incidence of hip fracture in the west… where we have a diet richer in meat and dairy. I think the moderate risk is outweighed by the large benefits of a plant based diet. That said, one could choose the best of both… I do still consume milk, as I don’t like the alternatives, which are often highly processed and taste foul. Yogurt is a good option too.
Jdsk
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Re: Measuring Blood Pressure

Post by Jdsk »

There are many more possible confounders in retrospective cross-population studies than in the designs used in these two studies. That's one of the reasons that they give higher quality evidence.

And I wasn't recommending any diet over any other, either for improving personal health or for reducing environmental impact. Only pointing out one particular risk from a change to a plant-based diet. And that that risk to bones can probably be managed.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Measuring Blood Pressure

Post by Jdsk »

S2L wrote: 13 Feb 2022, 11:25amThat said, one could choose the best of both… I do still consume milk, as I don’t like the alternatives, which are often highly processed and taste foul. Yogurt is a good option too.
The vitamin D content of products described as "yogurt" and commercially available in the UK varies enormously.

The best way to be sure that intake is adequate is oral supplementation. Current national advice for the UK is for that in the winter months. I recommend all year round, especially so if you have any additional risk factors, such as a plant-based diet. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the national guidance shifts to that for everyone as the evidence accumulates.

NHS advice:
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins- ... vitamin-d/

Jonathan
landsurfer
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Re: Measuring Blood Pressure

Post by landsurfer »

In early November this year i suffered a Transient Global Amnesia event (TGA) while out cycling.
When my daughter got me to hospital, the ambulance service in Rotherham had refused to attend as i was on a canal towpath, I was seen and told my blood pressure was dangerously high .... and then left for 14 hours in A&E waiting room. Seen by a doctor then left for a further 10 hours before going for a CT scan, Chest x-ray and 6 days later an MRI scan.
Result ?
No damage from the TGA but diagnosed with severe heart disease, Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy, my heart only pumping a smaller capacity of blood due to a thickened heart muscle, caused by unknown and untreated high blood pressure ....
Get yourselves checked out folks, there are no symptoms until you die in the chair watching the rugby.
I was lucky, now i can tailor my life and cycling for my best outcome.
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
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Mick F
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Re: Measuring Blood Pressure

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S2L wrote: 13 Feb 2022, 9:53am Peeping through this section, there is another thread of yours on statins, so I assume you have a cholesterol problem too.
I had a massive cholesterol issue.
Genetic familial very high.

My brother in law had a routine check and found he was very high, so the three daughters were checked - all ok, but they got on to their mother (my sister) to get her's checked too. She objected, because she wasn't "related" to her husband, but still went for a check. She was even higher!

She got on to me, and I was sky high! Even higher than her! :shock: 11.4 comes to mind.

Was on statins (big ones) for years and years and eventually developed bad side-effects, so now I'm on fortnightly injections of Repatha. No side effects at all, and my cholesterol count is normal.

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/ ... AR/repatha
Mick F. Cornwall
S2L
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Re: Measuring Blood Pressure

Post by S2L »

landsurfer wrote: 13 Feb 2022, 1:07pm
No damage from the TGA but diagnosed with severe heart disease, Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy, my heart only pumping a smaller capacity of blood due to a thickened heart muscle, caused by unknown and untreated high blood pressure ....
Get yourselves checked out folks, there are no symptoms until you die in the chair watching the rugby.
I was lucky, now i can tailor my life and cycling for my best outcome.
That's what my dad had. He was diagnosed when he was 52 and passed about 25 years later. Drugs did miracles to keep him alive and at the beginning his heart function improved significantly, so much so that he was taken off the transplant list. By his mid/late fifties he wasn't far off average for his age. But his quality of life deteriorated in his 60s. Basically, he never wanted to give up wine, processed meats and various cheeses, so on top of his initial four medications (on top of my head ACE inhibitor, Beta blocker, diuretic and another one I can't remember), other medications piled up (including statins of course) to fend off the effects of increasing BMI and related issues. I have no proof of this, but I am convinced that he had a lot more to live and more importantly he could have lived the last 10-15 years a lot better, had he changed his lifestyle. Doctors advised to lose weight and to cut wine (give or take he was on 50-60 units a week), but it always came across as "something to do on top of the medications", rather than the most important thing to do... which is what it should be...
landsurfer
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Re: Measuring Blood Pressure

Post by landsurfer »

I was initially given statins, Atorvastatin, with Amlodipine daily. But the statin caused such pain in my feet i could not walk so the GP put a stop to that. As a result she doubled the Amlodipine from 5mg a day to 10mg .... my lower legs and feet swelled up like balloons !
So, back to 5mg Amlodipine with 2.5mg Ramipril and all seems to be ok ....
Blood pressure just taken .... 140/83 .. best of 3.
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
thirdcrank
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Re: Measuring Blood Pressure

Post by thirdcrank »

Not everybody wants to increase their life expectancy if the choice is between dying happy(ish) or another decade+ of abstinence = misery
S2L
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Re: Measuring Blood Pressure

Post by S2L »

landsurfer wrote: 13 Feb 2022, 2:02pm I was initially given statins, Atorvastatin, with Amlodipine daily. But the statin caused such pain in my feet i could not walk so the GP put a stop to that. As a result she doubled the Amlodipine from 5mg a day to 10mg .... my lower legs and feet swelled up like balloons !
So, back to 5mg Amlodipine with 2.5mg Ramipril and all seems to be ok ....
Blood pressure just taken .... 140/83 .. best of 3.
I am sure therapies and drugs evolved since 1993, but I'm pretty sure my dad was on Ramipril too...
S2L
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Re: Measuring Blood Pressure

Post by S2L »

thirdcrank wrote: 13 Feb 2022, 2:12pm Not everybody wants to increase their life expectancy if the choice is between dying happy(ish) or another decade+ of abstinence = misery
Depends what is misery... if by misery you mean having to avoid alcohol is one thing, or by misery you mean being unable to run or cycle or go for a hike in the lakes... you get to choose the misery
landsurfer
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Re: Measuring Blood Pressure

Post by landsurfer »

Avoiding carbs and alcohol in exchange for more time with Julie and cycling ..... no issue ..... Julie and cycling ... and grandkids and motorbikes .... but the flying has come to a dead stop ...
The Grandson will be taking lessons ... he can fly grandad around for a change...
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
S2L
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Re: Measuring Blood Pressure

Post by S2L »

landsurfer wrote: 13 Feb 2022, 2:34pm Avoiding carbs and alcohol in exchange for more time with Julie and cycling ..... no issue ..... Julie and cycling ... and grandkids and motorbikes .... but the flying has come to a dead stop ...
The Grandson will be taking lessons ... he can fly grandad around for a change...
Exactly! :D
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Mick F
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Re: Measuring Blood Pressure

Post by Mick F »

Please don't think I'm making excuses or trying to find a way out.
I'm talking as a mechanic/engineer, not a medical person, and I'm not grinding an axe.

Been thinking ...................
(as I often do)

How is BP measured?
The cuff is strapped to your arm/wrist or whatever, and compressed until the pulse isn't felt.
Then it's slowly released until the pulse returns.
The system is calibrated to give pressure readings. The two should be within a certain scale.

Now, here's a theory.
Pay attention to my first couple of sentences above of course! :wink:

Just say the heart is bigger and stronger than the average heart and the arteries are stronger too.
This means that the calibration of the BP monitor isn't correct and you could show high BP.
Say a small weak heart and thin arteries, and the BP could show low.

Valid?
Mick F. Cornwall
S2L
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Re: Measuring Blood Pressure

Post by S2L »

Mick F wrote: 13 Feb 2022, 3:30pm Please don't think I'm making excuses or trying to find a way out.
I'm talking as a mechanic/engineer, not a medical person, and I'm not grinding an axe.

Been thinking ...................
(as I often do)

How is BP measured?
The cuff is strapped to your arm/wrist or whatever, and compressed until the pulse isn't felt.
Then it's slowly released until the pulse returns.
The system is calibrated to give pressure readings. The two should be within a certain scale.

Now, here's a theory.
Pay attention to my first couple of sentences above of course! :wink:

Just say the heart is bigger and stronger than the average heart and the arteries are stronger too.
This means that the calibration of the BP monitor isn't correct and you could show high BP.
Say a small weak heart and thin arteries, and the BP could show low.

Valid?
No… all athletes with strong heart and vascular system show lower than normal blood pressure. Strong arteries mean they are very elastic, rather than very stiff, so the opposite of stress/strain in engineering :D
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