When did Shimano quality fall?

[pete75]

Allvit? A dreadful rear mech from the stone age, rightfully consigned to the dustbin of history.

cheers

I only mentioned it because been trying with a bit of success to get one to work for somebody today. Was also working on a vastly superior English made product, Benelux Super 60 of the same era - if anything a better design than Campag Gran Sport though a little heavy. For anyone who thinks that stuff is a bit behind the times am also running Benelux mark 8 on one bike.

At a guess the Allvit was still being produced by Huret when Shimano and Sunrace first arrived on these shores and it was they who consigned it to Brucey's bin......

[531colin]

...........
Yep but didn't they peak some years ago - maybe when trying to out do Sunrace?

Possibly when they pinched the slant parallelogram idea from SunTOUR to make the first working indexed gear.....not that indexing is needed.

[Brucey]

when the allvit was a new design, it had something going for it. So did many other mechs back in the day. But frankly, most of them were heavy, didn't really work that well, and many of them wore out rather quickly too. [For example the pivots in the allvit were engineered in an almost identical way to those in the duopar mech that gave so much trouble.]

I think someone said this about something else but maybe -playing devil's advocate- it applies here too;

....the intense feeling of success that you get from making the thing work at all kind of blinds you to its essential uselessness....

so yeah, it is a bit of a lark if you can make a 60 year old mech work but it isn't going to set the world alight.... they do shift better now than ever before (that's modern cogs and chains for you) but they still ain't great.

I've used bike parts from lots of different makers over about four decades and honestly, I can't think of a single groupset that didn't contain a few duff parts. Sometimes the strengths and weaknesses are apparent on day one but it can take a while for the truth to come out. Even then it doesn't stop parts that were terrible even in their day from becoming collector's items...

cheers

[pete75]

to make the first working indexed gear.....not that indexing is needed.

Nooo that was Sturmey Archer with their triggers........

[pete75]

I've used bike parts from lots of different makers over about four decades and honestly, I can't think of a single groupset that didn't contain a few duff parts.
cheers

That must be why, in years past at least, people didn't buy group sets but bought what appeared the best components for each function though sometimes that just meant Simplex retro friction levers on an otherwise all Campag bike. It's probably also why the French manufacturers stuck to their specialisms leading to the downfall of some when the tyranny of the gruppo arrived.

[blackbike]

Shimano are as good as ever, if not better.

Most consumer items have got better over time, and that includes bike bits.

My big discovery is that cheaper, machine built wheels are now very good indeed. I've put in enough miles on various ones now to know it to be true.

[beardy]

Most consumer items have got better over time

I dont find that. As described in another thread we have a lot of cheaper (low quality) stuff available now, so it isnt a fair comparison in that respect.
Another trend which makes it hard for me to accept something as better is shorter design life.
If you like to replace things as they get outdated then this can still be called better if you like to make things last then it isnt.

I am hanging on to any old stuff that I have until I can no longer do so because I always find the replacements not so durable. People are buying on a different set of standards to what they once were.

I often find myself caught in the gap between unaffordable and disposable.

[reohn2]

FWIW,I've had Shimano 6/7/8/9sp stuff,from Alivio up(not Dura Ace)it run's beautifully for yonks with minimal fuss.
Their STI's are great at all levels,I put 70+k miles on a pair of 7sp RSX STI's and they were just as sweet the day I day sold them.
But I didn't like the Sora STI's with the little peg on the inside(similar to Campag) but only because I couldn't reach it naturally from the drops,not very ergonomic IME.
Durability wise fantastic kit and their XT M75X series hubs are dreamlike
However their OBB's are rubbish,but that seems to be the case for OBB's across all makes,unless you pay serious money for Hope or Chris King .
10sp MTB stuff is in progress......
I dunno about 10sp road kit and I'm not about to find out unless I have to,there's nowt wrong wi' 8 and 9sp .

[Brucey]

....the French manufacturers stuck to their specialisms leading to the downfall of some when the tyranny of the gruppo arrived....

You are perhaps forgetting the 'Spidel' groupsets. Also, that when the 'production MTB' was in its infancy, many of the best parts (eg as fitted to the first stumpjumpers) were French, not Japanese or Italian.

When I looked at a campag, suntour or shimano gruppo I'd usually be thinking that one or two parts were not that great, or wouldn't fit my bike, or that I had better already. But when I looked at a spidel gruppo, they were nearly all like that, to me.

No, what the French manufacturers failed to do was produce innovative products that worked well, in good quality, at an affordable price. Same with campag, really; so after many years of slavish loyalty to campag for my road bike, I started using whatever I thought was best, and/or best value. Pretty soon I'd run out of reasons to buy French stuff, except for rims, tyres, and friction gear levers, more or less.

Cone to think of it I've not had a 'complete gruppo' bike going for about 30 years. And that is despite the fact that I've bought some that were so equipped... and some of the bits I've swapped out might be considered 'downgrades' rather than upgrades....

cheers

[Samuel D]

I have long liked the look and feel of Campagnolo stuff (mostly before the carbon bits started showing up everywhere; they might work fine but they’re ugly to my eye). But the last time I checked, Campagnolo did a couple of important things worse than Shimano, notably hub flanges with poorer bracing angles. Is that still the case? This offset several little things that I preferred on Campagnolo kit, not to mention the better spare-parts availability.

As for Shimano, in my experience even their cheap stuff – I have 2300 shifters, for example – works ridiculously well. It may have too much plastic and be a bit faddish/tasteless at times (e.g. windows showing the gear on shifters), but if it gets to market it normally works. No doubt there are exceptions that prove the rule.

[pete75]

....the French manufacturers stuck to their specialisms leading to the downfall of some when the tyranny of the gruppo arrived....

You are perhaps forgetting the 'Spidel' groupsets. Also, that when the 'production MTB' was in its infancy, many of the best parts (eg as fitted to the first stumpjumpers) were French, not Japanese or Italian.


cheers

Spidel wasn't really a group set just stuff from different manufacturers cobbled together and probably too late anyway. French parts were high quality for road and touring bikes not just MTB's. Early MTB used French stuff because French firms were about the only ones making suitable parts e.g. TA with small chain rings and cranks that could take them.
It didn't stop much of the French component industry going to the wall though.

[Brucey]

sun tour groupsets were also 'cobbled together' and so (effectively) were campag ones, for years. Their bits were partially (or wholly) made in all kinds of places... I dunno how much shimano stuff is/was subbed out....

I think the end came for the French road stuff when they failed to react to the shimano 600SIS groupset; suddenly the best French stuff was basically out-performed by second-tier shimano kit. Cheaper, more durable, worked better. Hard to beat that....

cheers

[mig]

shimano track kit is good (but expensive.) not sure about the chains though.

i was once told shimano aim geared systems at ease of shifting rather than durability. hence sprocket teeth are less tall and thinner. not sure of the truth in this or whether it's urban myth as the only component i run is a 105 rear derailleur (under a campagnolo 8 spd cassette.)

[beardy]

I often find myself caught in the gap between unaffordable and disposable.

I posted this earlier as a general comment about modern consumer goods.
Shimano on the other hand is a welcome exception to this rule, they sell goods that solve the problem at a good price. I find they offer a reliable and affordable part for most of my cycling componentry.
I certainly dont always buy Shimano but they are a dependable choice, especially as you get near the cheapest components.

[reohn2]

I certainly dont always buy Shimano but they are a dependable choice, especially as you get near the cheapest components.

Shimano for me,have always done the job and done it well.
The ability to use rear mechs and chainsets,double or triple across 6/7/8/9sp systems and at whatever groupset level I find for most types of cycling very useful.
However with the intervention of the keep up with the Jones' needless 10sp rear end and the abomination of EBB's,things are starting to become very specialised,that I find troubling.
People are being funnelled into total groupset heaven/hell(take your pick),cycling which may be good for manufacturers and some aspects of cycling but the poor tourist is at the bottom of the consideration pile,as manufacturers clamber for evermore cogs on the cassette and more complex technical electronic wizardry.
Some will term it progress,I term it as unnecessary fashion statements of manufacturing superiority that narrows down choice and latitude that up to 9sp Shimano was liberating and reassuring,that's changing fast and the looser is the cyclist IMHO.