Electric gear shifting?

[JohnW]

The problem with slipping friction levers (usually on the front changer, in my own experience) started for me about 30 years ago, when springs in the gear-changers began to get stronger - about the time when Shimano introduced indexing. It didn't happen to me on all frames, which was unexplained to me because all my frames at the time were 531. Certainly flexing was part of the problem. The Sun-Tour ("Retrofriction"?) levers, and the famous, nay legendary, Simplex levers solved the problem for me. The Sun-Tour levers are still performing for me, or were when their bike was rested about 7 or 8 years ago, and one of the Simplex sets has, as Brucey suggests, become old and worn and in extremis (i.e. on the long, steep drags from one Dalehead to another) the front does slip. I've replaced them with the Dia-Compes from Spa, and problem solved now. I think that the sti (and similar) systems necessitate stronger springs, but the problem can be solved.

What some people have said about the down-tube position of friction levers is true for some, who find that the levers aren't in an easily reachable position, but also there seems to be lack of confidence - downright fear even - associated with taking hands off handlebars to change gear. For the timid, there are various locations for friction levers as reohn2 has said, in addition to the downtube and bar-end friction shifters seem to be currently as popular as down-tube gear levers.

For decades generations of cyclists have used friction levers without question and without problems and honestly, it's second nature - you don't even think about it. It's for the folks who use sti-type systems to think about costs and incompatibility when they need to replace something or make a change.

I've never even used indexing - the con-trick of indexing became apparent to me over 30 years ago, when in my (then) LBS, and the Shimano distributor's rep just happened to be in there when I was buying an Ultra-6 (Sun-Tour) block. The Shimano distributer's rep went into a diatribe about Shimano's new gear-change levers, and how wonderful they were, and how easy it was to just 'click' from one sprocket to another - much quicker and more positive he said. I'd have to buy a Shimano freewheel block though, because the levers wouldn't work on the Ultra-6 block - not compatible due to the indexing - the distances between sprockets were different. Also was I aware that the (then new) Shimano 'Uniglide' chain was incompatible with the spacing on the Sun-Tour block? This was the start of the years of claptrap which has resulted in me continuing to use 30-years old, pre-index, friction levers that I'd always used.

I just see the whole sti thing as being a money-making con.

[Brucey]

I've never even used indexing - the con-trick of indexing became apparent to me over 30 years ago, when in my (then) LBS, and the Shimano distributor's rep just happened to be in there when I was buying an Ultra-6 (Sun-Tour) block. The Shimano distributer's rep went into a diatribe about Shimano's new gear-change levers, and how wonderful they were, and how easy it was to just 'click' from one sprocket to another - much quicker and more positive he said. I'd have to buy a Shimano freewheel block though, because the levers wouldn't work on the Ultra-6 block - not compatible due to the indexing - the distances between sprockets were different. Also was I aware that the (then new) Shimano 'Uniglide' chain was incompatible with the spacing on the Sun-Tour block? This was the start of the years of claptrap which has resulted in me continuing to use the old, pre-index, Shimano levers that I'd been previously using for years and years afterwards.

I just see the whole sti thing as being a money-making con..

Indexing, STIs, more (and more) sprockets.... they are all things that, for racing, might well give a competitive advantage. In other cycling disciplines, they can be a convenience in use, or a PITA at other times, or both, depending on your POV. EGS is very likely similar, except that I see the gains as being so marginal that they are not worth having (vs the downsides), even if the stuff were cheaper than cable-operated equipment.

The slippery slope of changes in rear hub width and number (and spacing) of sprockets means that, over the years, I've had at least 25 different permutations of sprockets, sprocket pitch, and hub OLN on my derailleur geared solo bikes. Admittedly I started on 5s and I've used some odd spacings in there (128mm, 132,5mm), as well as the conventional ones, but when you think that I stopped counting when I got to the 9s era, that is a heck of a lot of faffing about...

I'd have found time for a lot more riding if I hadn't been fooling around with the latest set of cogs and this week's rear hub spacing....

cheers

[JohnW]

...........Indexing, STIs, more (and more) sprockets.... they are all things that, for racing, might well give a competitive advantage.............The slippery slope of changes in rear hub width and number (and spacing) of sprockets means that, over the years, I've had at least 25 different permutations of sprockets, sprocket pitch, and hub OLN on my derailleur geared solo bikes. Admittedly I started on 5s and I've used some odd spacings in there (128mm, 132,5mm), as well as the conventional ones, but when you think that I stopped counting when I got to the 9s era, that is a heck of a lot of faffing about..............I'd have found time for a lot more riding if I hadn't been fooling around with the latest set of cogs and this week's rear hub spacing....................

cheers

Yes, I think that about sums it up Brucey. Since being hit in January, and having one frame written off, I've had two bikes on the road - one has a 5-speed screw-on block (14-28)and the other an 8-speed cassette (11-32) - and both quite happy with friction down-tube shifters. The bike that was written off had 6-speed screw-on block (14-28).

[horizon]

Indexing, STIs, more (and more) sprockets.... they are all things that, for racing, might well give a competitive advantage. In other cycling disciplines, they can be a convenience in use, or a PITA at other times, or both, depending on your POV. EGS is very likely similar, except that I see the gains as being so marginal that they are not worth having (vs the downsides), even if the stuff were cheaper than cable-operated equipment.

I've never used STI but I personally wouldn't knock it - most people say it's very good. Same for EGS - it works and people like it, racing or not. It's only when you come at this from a wider angle (e.g. roadside repairability) that a different perspective emerges. But that's a philosophical preference not an argument against STI/EGS per se. If EGS proves itself (as has STI), then the argument against it is personal rather than practical. If you don't intend to repair your own bikes or switch parts over then performance and cost become your only criteria.

[Brucey]

... If you don't intend to repair your own bikes or switch parts over then performance and cost become your only criteria.

unless you have lumped them in with 'performance' I would add

- durability
- benign failure modes
- crash resistance
- reliability

in there too. STIs do not score very well on some and EGS doesn't either.

cheers

[horizon]

No - you're right, I definitely didn't lump them in with performance! Performance is just how it works literally in the moment in the hand without further considerations. I'm making sweeping accusations here about male riders in their twenties and thirties which cannot be totally true (and hopefully will be refuted by other posters). But as a broad impression from what I read and what people say, it isn't so far off the mark IMV.

[RickH]

EGS doesn't really 'simplify' here, not yet. In the future it could do if it is programmed right but even then the rider would need to know if the system was 'thinking of a double shift or not' beforehand I reckon.

XTR Di2 has optional settings (that can be changed out on the road/trail) to do sequential shifting, i.e will change to the next highest or lowest gear, whichever chainring/sprocket combination that requires & doing the double shifts as nececssary. (Described in Bikeradar review under "Programmable Shifter(s)").

Rick.

[Dave W]

You guys do make me laugh. STI's are superb, integrated brake and gear levers - brilliant invention! Change gear whilst stood up climbing, change gear and brake at the same time no need to move your hands off the bars. Granted if you're riding an antique then you'll not want them but on modern machinery I wouldn't be without them. I have another bike with bar end shifters but stability when changing gear on potholed roads can be a problem. Downtube shifters? Never ever again!

[Brucey]

I know our roads are dreadful these days but if you just can't manage one-handed on the bars whilst changing gear, presumably you struggle with hand signals too?

cheers

[Tonyf33]

... If you don't intend to repair your own bikes or switch parts over then performance and cost become your only criteria.

unless you have lumped them in with 'performance' I would add

- durability
- benign failure modes
- crash resistance
- reliability

in there too. STIs do not score very well on some and EGS doesn't either.

cheers

What statistical evidence do you have or is that the same facts/evidence you use when comparing carbon components too. Your personal POV (& that is all that it is) is that EGS isn't suitable for touring, or commuting, or leisure or utility riding. Other people's mileage indeed does vary to yours, yours isn't the last word despite your insistence it is with your continued bashing of certain materials and components being unsuitable for X, Y and Z.
What you deign to be lack of durability isn't to another, reliability so far of EGS is extremely high and failures are few, I really fail to see why people are such snobs/stick in the muds when it comes to other peoples choices.

[Brucey]

....What you deign to be lack of durability isn't to another, reliability so far of EGS is extremely high and failures are few, I really fail to see why people are such snobs/stick in the muds when it comes to other peoples choices.

I'm not being snobbish, that appears to be the preserve of others. I'm sure some folk will buy this stuff just for the sake of one-upmanship or something, thinking 'it is the best'. Well it might be for some jobs but I'm reasonably certain that for most riders it isn't, and that they would be better off with something else instead on their bike and/or maybe doing something better with the money.

Calling people stick in the muds and other silly names achieves nothing. Most cyclists will embrace anything that constitutes a real improvement in function, or comfort, provided it doesn't come with an unacceptable burden of some other kind, like cost, unreliability, onerous/difficult maintenance, unrepairability, lack of compatibility, poor spare parts availability, unforgiving failure modes. Di2 could have a full complement there, whilst giving up just marginal gains in return.

There have been numerous failures of Di2 in its chosen environment (racing, fairweather weekend heroes) so the idea that the reliability is 'extremely high' (whatever that means, I thought you liked 'facts'..?) is certainly not the case. Put it this way, if it has even a 0.5% failure rate, it is rubbish by today's standards, and if it were a safety critical feature on a car, I'd expect it to be recalled.

As I mentioned above it does not have entirely benign failure modes and many users have been plagued by intermittent faults of various kinds.

You already can't buy spares for early Di2 systems so it doesn't seem very practical in the long term either.

Anyone can (and should) be able to buy anything they like, without having to justify it, it is a free world. But if you participate in a discussion as to the pros and cons of certain equipment I think it is fair to say that whatever shortcomings any given system might have will come out in discussion, as well as whatever benefits it might bring; that is the whole point.

cheers

[Dave W]

I broke a chain more than once - should there have been a recall?
Friction shifters - were they recalled?
Got a puncture the other day too - shocking reliability record inner tubes have - downright dangerous if you ask me.
I know someone who's racing wheels fell apart on the way home from a ten mile time trial - god they made some rubbish years ago!

[Brucey]

I broke a chain more than once - should there have been a recall?

there have been;

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2009/Bicycle-Chains-and-Chain-Connector-Links-Recalled-by-SRAM-Due-to-Fall-Hazard/

cheers