Les couteaux... to carry, or not?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
tyreon
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Re: Les couteaux... to carry, or not?

Post by tyreon »

I know the carrying of knives to be '...very worrying'. After parliamentary debate,more consultation can happen+++

I myself am very worried over the use of Karate or MDMA techniques. Should proponents be stopped from travelling(like those planning to join ISIS?)? Preventative measures such as having leave to travel withdrawn subject to an individual having their limbs tied whilst holidaying might be considered. Amputation?

Anyone heard anything about such being discussed by the House of Fraud?

Please claim expenses on way out of chamber
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simonineaston
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Re: Les couteaux... to carry, or not?

Post by simonineaston »

Tangled Metal wrote:I thought at first that was the French sausage made of guts and offal...
That's the one! Mind-you, I've always eaten it cold, sliced (although not on this occasion, as my knife wasn't sharp enough... ;-) ) - for me, there's something strangely irresistible about that, err... special aroma!
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
thirdcrank
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Re: Les couteaux... to carry, or not?

Post by thirdcrank »

This is just to add a bit more about what I posted about having things for a naughty purpose.

I've already linked to provisions about offensive weapons and things intended to be used to commit criminal damage. The other main crime prevention offence is sometimes referred to as "going equipped" under s 25 of the Theft Act 1968.

25 Going equipped for stealing, etc.
(1) A person shall be guilty of an offence if, when not at his place of abode, he has with him any article for use in the course of or in connection with any burglary or theft.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/25

I thought that wrapped everything up, but it used to say "burglary, theft or cheat." I see that "cheat" was removed when a new offence was created under s 6 of the Fraud Act 2006.

6 Possession etc. of articles for use in frauds
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he has in his possession or under his control any article for use in the course of or in connection with any fraud.


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/section/6
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bovlomov
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Re: Les couteaux... to carry, or not?

Post by bovlomov »

I missed this.
thirdcrank wrote: A lot of that reflects my own instinct but I fancy substituting "firearm" for "knife" would reflect the thoughts of some people in the United States.

I was thinking about that as I typed my earlier post, and that's why I wrote that knives are unlike guns in that respect. True, in the US guns are seen as a basic tool, and as such they are given to children. That's all very recent history though, whereas the knife has been with us since we were not much more than apes. Perhaps it's only my own prejudices, but I see nothing wrong with a child brandishing a stick (even in an aggressive way), but I feel a bit ill when I see the mock shooting.

thirdcrank wrote:I think it's also important to be aware that in English law, a person can get a long way with the preparations to commit a crime before they might be found guilty of an attempt. Whatever the effects that these laws have on reasonable people - and I'm sure that one is to demonstrate that something is being done, even when it isn't - at least they allow the police etc to intervene at an early stage, rather than encouraging them to wait for the full offence to be committed. Part of the problem for the legal system is identifying the baddies when they portray themselves as being reasonable people themselves.

What is the measure of the law's success? Is the law proportionate? Is it effective? As far as I can see, the law is slightly disproportionate and it is wholly ineffective.

To be utterly wet and liberal about it... ...isn't the problem that the law is trying to mop up the wider problems within our society (inequality, ignorance, anger, greed....)?
thirdcrank
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Re: Les couteaux... to carry, or not?

Post by thirdcrank »

It would only be possible to measure the success of the law by identifying what it was trying to achieve. Let's go for "social control." Within a society still divided along class lines, the law is part of the portrayal of British = Best which seems to succeed pretty well in keeping the lid on.

Looking at whether it actually "works" at a more individual level is somewhat different. People who come into contact with the criminal law whether as defendants or complainants are often dissatisfied. It's my impression, and no more than that, that the people who live in places - mainly European countries - where they ditched the adversarial system are happier with the way things work.

One of the problems I was trying to explain further up is that the more the individual suspect is protected from the power of the law and ultimately the state, the more restrictions tend to be placed on everybody. Knives are IMO a pretty good example of this. Few of us want violent people being able to increase their potential to cause injury by arming themselves with knives etc but that's not so easy to deliver, so we end up with blanket bans on some of the most useful implements devised by mankind.
============================================================================
PS I forgot to add this before in connection with the USA and guns How about:

A boy scout movement being necessary to the health of horses' hooves, the right of little boys to own penknives shall not be infringed. :wink:
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bovlomov
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Re: Les couteaux... to carry, or not?

Post by bovlomov »

thirdcrank wrote:A boy scout movement being necessary to the health of horses' hooves, the right of little boys to own penknives shall not be infringed.

Indeed. And whither the whittlers? Children are forced to endure mindfulness lessons at gunpoint (so to speak), while the surest path to inner serenity (whittling) is forbidden.

By the way, fermentation and distillation are also basic human pastimes that our leaders have been desperate to control - by tax or by prohibition. Ever get the feeling they don't trust us?
thirdcrank
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Re: Les couteaux... to carry, or not?

Post by thirdcrank »

bovlomov wrote: ... By the way, fermentation and distillation are also basic human pastimes that our leaders have been desperate to control - by tax or by prohibition. Ever get the feeling they don't trust us?


The border between using taxation to control booze and to raise revenue is too blurred for me to make much informed comment. That applies to more than booze, of course.
RDW
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Re: Les couteaux... to carry, or not?

Post by RDW »

Tangled Metal wrote:I have seen some Opinels for sale with coloured wooden handles that look like they have a different collar design which does not appear to be lockable. It does not have the tapered groove that you rotate until it stops the folding action, also it doesn't have the one which stops the blade opening from a folded position. It looked like the collar was non-rotating. If they do these in the smaller sizes to meet UK laws then it is one option for UK use but that does not affect transit terminals into and out of the UK.

The spyderco UK legal folder conforms to laws and precedents through very careful design. I am not 100% clear on the mechanism but it appears to be a sun-3" blade that folds and has a special form of locking mechanism that is not considered to meet the criteria in law to be an actual locking mechanism. Certainly no sliplock mechanism or other standard locking mech. A good and well made knife.


My worry about the smaller Opinels without locking collars (or larger ones with collar removed) would be how safe they are - I don't think there's a backspring to resist closure (like you have with a Swiss Army Knife), so wouldn't the risk of them biting your fingers be relatively high?

The Spyderco UKPK seems like a technically good solution to complying with the letter of the law/legal precedent, but I think its appearance is against it. I suspect it doesn't look like a street-legal tool to the average PC:
http://edcforums.com/threads/spyderco-u ... are.80547/

In at least one case, an owner was told by the police that he could accept confiscation, or dispute it in court:
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/sho ... derco-UKPK
Tangled Metal
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Re: Les couteaux... to carry, or not?

Post by Tangled Metal »

I think if you're using a knife for cutting, say cutting a sausage like someone said earlier there is less chance of it closing. The cutting action effectively creates a force in the opening direction, I.e. opposite to the force needed to close the blade onto your fingers. If it is this use you're carrying the knife I see no problem. If you've got other plans for the knife then perhaps a problem. Whittling or carving probably works better with a fixed blade knife or a locking knife but that's not the OP's function. For the OP it probably not an issue.
beardy
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Re: Les couteaux... to carry, or not?

Post by beardy »

I have an Opinel with the collar missing, it just flicks open with a flick of the wrist.

I always use it with my fingers out of the way, holding it in my fingertips, as it can close equally easy.

I wonder if people can avoid possessing an Opinel locknife if the collar is kept somewhere else when cycling onto the Ferry.
nirakaro
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Re: Les couteaux... to carry, or not?

Post by nirakaro »

On a similar, but not unrelated, topic, my dad never handed in his service pistol when he left the navy in 1944. Being of an old-fashioned mindset, he liked to have it near at hand, and when he drove down to a rented apartment in Provence every summer, he tucked it, with a few bullets, under the driving seat. As far as I know, he did this every year until he was too old to drive, in about 2002. He never got stopped.
iviehoff
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Re: Les couteaux... to carry, or not?

Post by iviehoff »

Though at some point a law was passed under which he could have got a 5 yr automatic sentence for possession.

Clothing can be used as a murder weapon. You can garrotte someone with it. Admittedly a bit less convenient than a Swiss army knife or someone's fishing knife. But then there are all manner of large blunt instruments aboard a ship you could recruit to threaten someone with.

Some Pakistanis hijacked an airliner in Singapore in about 1990 with Swiss army knives, while I was in Singapore on a business trip. As a result, when I flew back from Singapore shortly after that, I had to hand in my Swiss Army Knife at security, but they labelled it, carried it, and gave it back to me at Heathrow.
bretonbikes
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Re: Les couteaux... to carry, or not?

Post by bretonbikes »

beardy wrote:I have an Opinel with the collar missing, it just flicks open with a flick of the wrist.

I always use it with my fingers out of the way, holding it in my fingertips, as it can close equally easy.

I wonder if people can avoid possessing an Opinel locknife if the collar is kept somewhere else when cycling onto the Ferry.


Removing the collar is a common and easy trick - just pops on and off. You're a brave man to use one without the collar - fabulous knives!
38 years of cycletouring, 33 years of running cycling holidays, 8 years of running a campsite for cyclists - there's a pattern here...
edocaster
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Re: Les couteaux... to carry, or not?

Post by edocaster »

nirakaro wrote:On a similar, but not unrelated, topic, my dad never handed in his service pistol when he left the navy in 1944. Being of an old-fashioned mindset, he liked to have it near at hand, and when he drove down to a rented apartment in Provence every summer, he tucked it, with a few bullets, under the driving seat. As far as I know, he did this every year until he was too old to drive, in about 2002. He never got stopped.


So... what happened to this pistol and ammo?
nirakaro
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Re: Les couteaux... to carry, or not?

Post by nirakaro »

edocaster wrote:
nirakaro wrote:On a similar, but not unrelated, topic, my dad never handed in his service pistol when he left the navy in 1944. Being of an old-fashioned mindset, he liked to have it near at hand, and when he drove down to a rented apartment in Provence every summer, he tucked it, with a few bullets, under the driving seat. As far as I know, he did this every year until he was too old to drive, in about 2002. He never got stopped.


So... what happened to this pistol and ammo?


I wish I knew. I suspect it's at the bottom of a river somewhere.
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