How old is this?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
1942alexander
Posts: 254
Joined: 29 Dec 2012, 8:11pm
Location: Lancashire (summer), Tenerife (winter)

How old is this?

Postby 1942alexander » 16 Aug 2015, 9:57pm

Just bought this bike yesterday for the frame, a Harry Quinn. Stripped the bike down today and tried to find a frame number... there isn't one on frame or fork. It came with GB bars with the scalloped ferrule where the stem fits and a GB spearpoint stem with the GB emblem on the head of the bar clamp bolt, both 1950s ish. Brake levers (Shimano 600) and bar tape seem to have been renewed. Chainset is a Stronglight 49d (1950s, 1960s) with single chainring. BB bearings were caged rather than loose so possibly changed which might explain the wrong bolts holding the cranks on. On the frame there are pump pegs for an 18" pump, just one braze-on for a downtube lever, cable stops for a bare wire rear brake cable, no bottle fixings, lamp bracket on front forks. The rear spacing is 120 and the dropouts seem to be Campagnolo, with adjusters, but with no name stamped on them. They're all Nervex lugs and the tubes are nicely finished in the BB. There is no 531 decal but there is one that says it was hand built by Harry Quinn. My 1959 Harry J Quinn didn't have this decal. Seat post is the old type. Hubs are large flange Normandy non Q/R, with newish rims. Overall, the frame is in remarkable condition. Can it really date back to the sixties (or before)?

frame1.jpg


frame2.jpg


frame3.jpg


frame4.jpg


frame5.jpg

nicmarsh
Posts: 258
Joined: 14 Sep 2011, 5:12pm
Location: SE UK

Re: How old is this?

Postby nicmarsh » 16 Aug 2015, 10:10pm

you could start by trying to date the lug pattern and fork crown

1942alexander
Posts: 254
Joined: 29 Dec 2012, 8:11pm
Location: Lancashire (summer), Tenerife (winter)

Re: How old is this?

Postby 1942alexander » 16 Aug 2015, 10:53pm

Hi nicmarsh, Unfortunately these lugs appear to be Nervex Pro which ran from the 1950s for over fifty years. I had hoped that the rear dropouts, without the name, would be a clue but they go back to 1952 and I can't find if or when the name was added.
Many thanks... Alex

Brucey
Posts: 35994
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: How old is this?

Postby Brucey » 16 Aug 2015, 11:22pm

my guess is that this frame has been refinished. Possibly the brake bosses have been added later too; (if they fit 700Cs better than 27" wheels this would strongly suggest that). The fork crown is one that was very popular in the early 1960s.

If the headset is original that might be the best way to date it.

Note that if refinished with a thick coat of primer that is sanded (or if chromed originally), you can lose stamping on the dropouts and maybe even the frame number too.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1942alexander
Posts: 254
Joined: 29 Dec 2012, 8:11pm
Location: Lancashire (summer), Tenerife (winter)

Re: How old is this?

Postby 1942alexander » 17 Aug 2015, 12:09am

Thanks Brucey,
I also suspect that the frame has been repainted at some time and it seems to have been well done. This is how it looked with 700 wheels and mudguards when I bought it.

frame0.jpg
frame0.jpg (40.83 KiB) Viewed 899 times


I took it all to bits to get it in the car boot when I collected it and didn't try my 27" wheels in it. I've now found the un-named dropouts in some early Campagnolo catalogues. They are in the 1953 and 1955 ones but not in the 1960 catalogue so allowing for a time lag for the popularity of the stuff to get from Italy to here I suppose this frame could be somewhere in the region of 1960, which is great, bang on my era. I still wonder about the missing frame number.
Thanks again Brucey... Alex

PT1029
Posts: 674
Joined: 16 Apr 2012, 9:20pm

Re: How old is this?

Postby PT1029 » 17 Aug 2015, 7:06am

There was a similar request recently about a Harry Quinn frame. I remember one respondent saying the Harry Quinn didn't do frame numbers, as the numbers would eneable to taxman to get a got estimate of his income!

TrekMad
Posts: 373
Joined: 2 Jun 2015, 10:17am

Re: How old is this?

Postby TrekMad » 17 Aug 2015, 7:33am

Going by the braze ons and the headset and components I'd say late 60' s early 70' s. The fact the 531 decal is not present really does shout respray. The canti bosses are likely additional at this time too.

TrekMad
Posts: 373
Joined: 2 Jun 2015, 10:17am

Re: How old is this?

Postby TrekMad » 17 Aug 2015, 7:35am

The Nervex professional lugs like yours were still available right up until the late 70' s and probably longer till stock dried up.

tatanab
Posts: 3779
Joined: 8 Feb 2007, 12:37pm

Re: How old is this?

Postby tatanab » 17 Aug 2015, 8:06am

PT1029 wrote:There was a similar request recently about a Harry Quinn frame. I remember one respondent saying the Harry Quinn didn't do frame numbers, as the numbers would eneable to taxman to get a got estimate of his income!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=77638&p=758810&hilit=quinn#p758810 Search for Quinn, there are other threads as well.

I'd say the frame is 1950s. The give away to me is the pump pegs on the down tube. "Nobody" had pump pegs on the downtube of a lightweight frame when I started club riding mid 1960s. The equipment would also suggest 50s into 60s. Unfortunately, given there is no frame number and it has had a respray, it could be just about anything with Quinn decals. Harry was very fussy about supplying decals when I met him in the 1980s, you had to provide a frame number with the correctly described first digit.

TrekMad
Posts: 373
Joined: 2 Jun 2015, 10:17am

Re: How old is this?

Postby TrekMad » 17 Aug 2015, 12:11pm

If you look closely at the canti braze ons they're almost certainly after build, so the pump pegs could be too. The fork crown is relatively modern, which definitely puts it 1965- early 70' s imo. The top cap on the rear stays is identical to the one my friend has on a similar build from 1968. Very Harry .

1942alexander
Posts: 254
Joined: 29 Dec 2012, 8:11pm
Location: Lancashire (summer), Tenerife (winter)

Re: How old is this?

Postby 1942alexander » 17 Aug 2015, 12:13pm

I'm also leaning now to the 1950s. The un-named dropouts, the handlebars (early version, see photos), the steel Lyotard pedals, the 49d single chainset, the light boss on the forks, no bottle fixings, pump on downtube, it all seems to point to 1950s or very early 1960s. In any case, it looks to have been a great buy and I'm looking forward to seeing it renovated. Thanks to all for your input... Alex

Dropout.jpg


I had this type on my F H Grubb in about 1955.
type1GB.jpg


This came with the bike. I'm taking this to be the early version because the pins would break and the ferrule become loose. The other type prevents that.
type2GB.jpg

TrekMad
Posts: 373
Joined: 2 Jun 2015, 10:17am

Re: How old is this?

Postby TrekMad » 17 Aug 2015, 12:20pm

Those are Campagnolo drop outs, you can just about make out the Brev.. on them. Likely your frame number is buried under the same thick paint. Campagnolo drop outs wouldn't really be popular in the British scene till post 1960. I still put this frame 1965- early 70' s
Certainly it's been ' modified' quite a bit! The components could really have come from anywhere. Hopefully a strip down will reveal the frame number.

1942alexander
Posts: 254
Joined: 29 Dec 2012, 8:11pm
Location: Lancashire (summer), Tenerife (winter)

Re: How old is this?

Postby 1942alexander » 17 Aug 2015, 1:40pm

TrekMad wrote:Those are Campagnolo drop outs, you can just about make out the Brev.. on them. Likely your frame number is buried under the same thick paint. Campagnolo drop outs wouldn't really be popular in the British scene till post 1960. I still put this frame 1965- early 70' s
Certainly it's been ' modified' quite a bit! The components could really have come from anywhere. Hopefully a strip down will reveal the frame number.


WOW, You must have amazing eyesight. All the times I've looked at them and photographed them and seen absolutely nothing. I've now cleaned off the paint to reveal... wait for it.... a frame number. God... I feel so stupid. Having found that one, I looked again on the fork and found the same number. Although it looks clear enough on the photo, it is incredibly hard to see. I put down the fork, went to get the camera and couldn't find it again.

RearNo.jpg


ForkNo.jpg


Now we know the number, does it help find the date? On the register, the first number 2962 (no Q), is Feb. 1958 while Q3618 is 1972 and Q3481 is 1975. The numbers really do seem to jump around a lot. So where does 3826 fit into the sequence?

Brucey
Posts: 35994
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: How old is this?

Postby Brucey » 17 Aug 2015, 1:41pm

the gear hanger is the type with the small hole in it; what are the exact dates for that model, I wonder?

Thinking about it if you delete the canti bosses, rear brake hanger, and perhaps pump pegs, the way the frame is done isn't wildly dissimilar from how my (early 70's, allegedly) Witcomb is; similar angles, gear braze-ons, fork crown, fork rake, brake reach etc. [Mind you I thought a lot of features on my Witcomb frame were anachronistic for the period, and it was only once I'd checked with the frame number that I got a date for it. I put canti bosses on my Witcomb, too.]

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

TrekMad
Posts: 373
Joined: 2 Jun 2015, 10:17am

Re: How old is this?

Postby TrekMad » 17 Aug 2015, 4:21pm

Catalog #14 is where this Campagnolo drop out dates from. This wasn't availablein the UK till at least 1960, and would not readily find it's way into traditional frame building till probably the mid 60' s. I'd still say 1965-75. But I'm not sure there's an accurate register.

I'm good at spotting frame details!

Anything else you need identified just throw it my way .