Cycling UK Forum

Yes Oscar

When it comes to children cycling on the road, assuming that they are skilled enough to control their bikes well and interact with drivers reasonably and using good practice, I would assume that they are treated with more care than adults on bikes. Drivers don't react the same way to all cyclists, and they are likely to see children as less predictable and therefore to take more care around them. If the child is, in fact, fairly predictable, then it should get more space than the average adult and slower, more cautious overtaking in general. Can anyone with cycling kids say if this does or doesn't hold true?

A problem with cyclepaths between junctions is that cyclists are less predictable (don't keep left, etc) so there is a risk of collision there too. But they are sometimes more pleasant than on-road routes.

Cycle training probably has huge potential to make people feel safer on the roads. Also, not just training people to cycle, but also training drivers how to interact with walkers, riders and cyclists could have a large benefit. That could be a significant part of the driving test, and the learning material could also focus a lot more on non-motorised road users. More intensive driver training & testing generally would probably help. And, it would be far cheaper & quicker than infrastructure.

Sares wrote: they are likely to see children as less predictable and therefore to take more care around them.

that'd be true for those motorists that can can see, but changing CDs, programming the satnav or simply not having had an eye test since 1963 can impair their ability.

with a small fine and a short ban at worst, why bother when they themselves are surrounded by airbags, impact protection & etc.?

Most people would feel terrible about hitting a child, though, most couldn't pass it off as just a fine and a short ban. There are some drivers who are not paying attention at all, but mostly people do see us (or there wouldn't be any of us left alive) and then give us too little space, or misjudge the speed that we're actually moving at, if they do things wrong. I think that both of these would be less of a problem with children, as people would take fewer chances.

sares, i see your point, and agree with it.
but there are people who cannot clearly see driving about
and others who don't bother to look.

that many of are still alive is because of our good road sense and ability to see these things coming. whether a child has these abilities without 20 years or so under their wheels is sadly doubtful

trying to load some pictures - never done it before!

it is a cycle lane in redcar

but as been corrected

taken 3 days to work this out! how to post a picture.

Peggy - just to check - that is marked as a cycle lane isn't it? There are no markings in the pictures.

Auchmill wrote:Interesting, if somewhat depressing reading. Sounds like we should abandon cycle lanes and invest billions in properly designed and maintained dedicated cycle paths separate from the road system.

The Milton Keynes Redways are a separate system, and the link I posted covers fairly thoroughly the type of accidents there.

Remember that even separate systems have to cross each other, and it is at junctions that most serious bike-car collisions happen, so you aren't necessarily removing the core problem even with a separate system.

Hubgearfreak- To some extent, yes, safety relies on good road sense by the cyclist. But consider the situation in the video shown here. This cyclist couldn't avoid the collision, and I suspect that I wouldn't have either in that situation. I mean, that when drivers do things which are completely unpredictable, even the experienced using every skill they know may get caught out. But thorough training (which my hypothetical child has) will reduce the risks when dealing with the average driver, and prevent most cycle-caused crashes, and many that could be caused by drivers. We let people drive in their mid-teens, so we feel they're capable of much greater responsibility at that point! The trouble with needing 20 years experience to be 'safe' is that people must start to cycle with no experience.

I know the problems on the roads, I see them every day. I think the risks are generally managable although there are some roads I avoid. I might get seriously injured while cycling, but if I was driving instead, my risk to myself remains, and my risk to others increases. Things could greatly improve, to be sure, but I think it's do-able now in many places. Even for someone new to cycling. Even for kids, if parents are sensible (and we desperately need kids to be able to, for their own independance, to keep them healthy, and to reduce environmental damage).

I wonder if part of that training should be ride defensively in certain situations, rather than assertively. Looking at that video it struck me that if the cyclist had been a car, and assuming the Volvo wasn't signalling left, then a car driver should have pulled in behind the car parked on the left to allow the Volvo to come straight on since the obstruction was on the left side of the road. Perhaps the cyclist could have done the same since he had to pull out into at least the centre of the road in case someone opened a right hand door of the parked car, which would have left little room for the bike and Volvo to pass each other if they met at this point.

I know this is hindsight and I don't have all the facts, but perhaps in such tight urban situations, which, I admit, I don't encounter, it may pay to ride just a little more defensively.

Similarly, re the higher accident rates of cycle lanes. Couldn't some of these accidents be avoided, especially at road intersections with more defensive riding? For example, by stopping at intersections? As car drivers we wouldn't (normally) shoot across a busy junction without slowing down or indeed stopping to check for on-coming traffic.

drosel.

It is a cycle lane laid by Redcar and Ceveland Council.
It is part of the National cycle track. as you can see it was laid to 1 meter then burnt off and repainted to a width of 500mm. I then complained to the council, my MP and sustrans because at the 500mm width it would have posed a danger to cyclists as it was much too narrow as the cars use the dotted line as a guide line to pass.

You would not believe what happened after that - they painted over the 500mm part with black paint so that at that point in time there was no cycle lane at all

If you do not succeed try again.

They have now widened that part of the road by 1 meter each side. (they actually had to dig up the road and widen it by 1 mtr each side.) In the end they had had three attempts but they got it right in the end. It actually seems like a good job which it should be after all that work and expense.

I will send a photo now I know how to do it.

The next bit of cycle path had no less than 18 signs to alert people to the fact that they are on a cycle path. This path consisted of a cycle path then a bit of a old road. I do not think it is even a mile long.

Nice day in Redcar today.

Peggy

Its not a cycle lane, its an advisory cycle lane (Dotted Bars). Advisory cycle lanes are not worth the paint they are done with. Around here they are used as parking spots and the cops and the councils simply ignore it.

However, if we were all individually writing letters of complaint, and, the councils were recieving hundreds of letters, something might get done.

Al

Sares wrote:Hubgearfreak- To some extent, yes, safety relies on good road sense by the cyclist. But consider the situation in the video shown here. This cyclist couldn't avoid the collision, and I suspect that I wouldn't have either in that situation.

Thanks for the link, it illustrates my point exactly.

The driver has airbags, side impact protection, crumple zones and passenger safety cell.

Sadly, the only thing that encourages them to pay attention/be courteous is the threat of prosecution and a penalty. - but from what i've read on this, neither has happened yet. indeed, from what i've read in cyclechat the police can't be buttocked and the victim is forced to recover the cost of a new bike themselves. i sincerely hope that both the cyclist and motorist both get what's due to them

And this is for an incident that was caught on camera, there are many, many times that this sort of sh1t happens and the motorist gets off scott free. twice for me last year for example. (once a damaged knee, that left me limping for weeks and the other time a wrecked bike) the police aren't interested and unfortunately for us, the aggressive and stupid motorists know it.

A legal system that assumed guilt on behalf of the larger road user over the more vulnerable, backed up by lengthy bans and substantial fines would sharpen their attention and improve their manners. anything else is relying on altruistic behaviour, and the 5% or whatever of motorists that behave like this simply haven't got an ounce of altruism in them, i'm arfaid

as far as i'm concerned, building all the segregated facilities that the country can afford is only going to encourage their attitude that we should keep out of the way of the road tax paying kings of the road

Someone suggested that motorists might give children a wider berth when driving their cars. In my experience of cycling with my son they generally do give a wide berth unless having to do so may cause them from being temporarily seperated from the car infront or delaying them for over half a second. In those extreme cases they will have to forgo the luxury of leaving extra space for the child!